"Home Theater" Speakers

[cistercian]

View attachment 82512

Rough measurement. In room, with Omnimic. Every 15 degrees from 0 to 75. I would ignore below 200 for sure. Should I try again but gate the measurements?

Thank you for posting this! I really appreciate it.

 

[cistercian]

So in other words, stay away from Bookshelf speakers for LCR?

I have found by exposure to really epic systems that BIG speakers capable of high SPL are just more fun!
What amazes me is how good the newer ones sound at normal levels. I actually like the giant PA look so
that is a bias for sure.

 

[Snoochers]

I have found by exposure to really epic systems that BIG speakers capable of high SPL are just more fun!
What amazes me is how good the newer ones sound at normal levels. I actually like the giant PA look so
that is a bias for sure.

Well, what do you mean by fun? Obviously isn't fun to listen at reference levels in a standard home theater or so loud that it leads to hearing damage so there is a point where SPLs don't really matter anymore practically. The question is whether or not bookshelf speakers can get loud enough to be just as good as towers in a 2 row home theatre.

 

[cistercian]

Well, what do you mean by fun? Obviously isn't fun to listen at reference levels in a standard home theater or so loud that it leads to hearing damage so there is a point where SPLs don't really matter anymore practically. The question is whether or not bookshelf speakers can get loud enough to be just as good as towers in a 2 row home theatre.

High SPL peaks are fun in my experience. Bass hits, gunshots, explosions...you name it. I am actually very careful with my ears. Exposure time is relevant.
My children and I both hate the theater experience because it is just too loud. But a system capable of a large dynamic range is
fun because the occasional high SPL peak is such a contrast. "music" speakers can lack this ability. A powerful amp is required too.
Bookshelf speakers are limited in my experience. That does not mean they cannot be epic or compelling!

High SPL speakers are not typically found in consumers homes.

 

[echopraxia]

So in other words, stay away from Bookshelf speakers for LCR?

In a sense, but it’s really about SPL capabilities (without distortion), not form factor. A while back, I tried my Genelec 8351B’s (which you could call really large bookshelves I suppose), and when combined with a subwoofer I did not find them lacking at all for the home theater role. They sounded really amazing. But a surround setup consisting all of top tier Genelecs would be extremely expensive, and I am not enough of a movie-phile to want to put that much into a home theater setup.

 

[aac]

There is a very important part about loud listening - hearing is adaptive and will "reduce" perceived volume after exposure to loud sound.
If you go to the construction site or a factory floor without protection you'll notice how unbearably loud sounds you encounter at first quickly become "acceptable" and almost unnocitable. If you try listening to something quieter after some exposure to loud sound then you will encounter a problem that you reduced your hearing sensitivity and it will sound quieter and less "exciting" than if you started listening at low level from the beginning. Not surprising that people that are used to listening at deafening levels can't go back.

 

[echopraxia]

There is a very important part about loud listening - hearing is adaptive and will "reduce" perceived volume after exposure to loud sound.
If you go to the construction site or a factory floor without protection you'll notice how unbearably loud sounds you encounter at first quickly become "acceptable" and almost unnocitable. If you try listening to something quieter after some exposure to loud sound then you will encounter a problem that you reduced your hearing sensitivity and it will sound quieter and less "exciting" than if you started listening at low level from the beginning. Not surprising that people that are used to listening at deafening levels can't go back.

No, that’s not really what this is about. We’re not talking about hearing damaged people here (at least not in most cases). There is still value to system that can effortlessly reach loud levels without distortion, even if it’s only experienced during brief musical peaks. But even fairly loud average SPL is not too risky, as long as you keep track of your exposure time.

I used to have a similar attitude to you (or what I perceive it to be) — kind of questioning even the desire at all to pursue speakers capable of very loud SPL. But then I realized a few things that opened me up to enjoy this experience: (1) A weighted SPL is very different from C weighted SPL, and if you look into what this means you’ll understand why bass and midbass power is not particularly unsafe, (2) exposure time matters a lot when considering risk of hearing damage, and short transient peaks are generally not a big concern — especially if they don’t have too excessive treble energy, and (3) higher SPL bass and midbass has a very significant tactile difference.

Regarding the value of the experience, I can only suggest you try it. It’s quite true that most audiophile speakers will start to compress and distort badly, and it will sound generally like them becoming really harsh when you reach that limit. I always thought my ears didn’t like the loudness, but that was only partially true: they don’t like the excessive distortion that manifests as glaringly harsh and loud mids and treble, as the bass and midbass can’t keep up, and starts producing high order distortion products.

With speakers capable of a lot of power effortlessly (without distortion), that doesn’t exist. It’s almost weird, because you’ll find yourself listening at far louder levels than you’d think and not even realize it, because the lack of distortion means there is no unpleasant harshness.

It’s true that you do want to be mindful of A-weighted SPL levels and exposure time, but often you may be surprised how much loud music is much lower dbA than dbC since most of the energy of pleasant loud music is weighted to the lower frequencies, which do not contribute to risk of hearing damage in the same way.

 

[Chromatischism]

There is a very important part about loud listening - hearing is adaptive and will "reduce" perceived volume after exposure to loud sound.
If you go to the construction site or a factory floor without protection you'll notice how unbearably loud sounds you encounter at first quickly become "acceptable" and almost unnocitable. If you try listening to something quieter after some exposure to loud sound then you will encounter a problem that you reduced your hearing sensitivity and it will sound quieter and less "exciting" than if you started listening at low level from the beginning. Not surprising that people that are used to listening at deafening levels can't go back.

This is true and I've experienced it myself at concerts. It's dangerous, though, since after adapting it makes you less aware that this is way to loud to be healthy for my hearing.

But it's a short-term effect, that wears off after an hour or so after the event is over.

 

[sigbergaudio]

So what do we think would be typical, specific characteristics of a speaker that gives the right experience for home theater? Type of drivers, sensitivity.. It's probably not just about SPL capability? Or is it? Do we for instance see a preference for waveguide and/or horn type tweeters?

 

[LTig]

It’s quite true that most audiophile speakers will start to compress and distort badly, and it will sound generally like them becoming really harsh when you reach that limit. I always thought my ears didn’t like the loudness, but that was only partially true: they don’t like the excessive distortion that manifests as glaringly harsh and loud mids and treble, as the bass and midbass can’t keep up, and starts producing high order distortion products.

With speakers capable of a lot of power effortlessly (without distortion), that doesn’t exist. It’s almost weird, because you’ll find yourself listening at far louder levels than you’d think and not even realize it, because the lack of distortion means there is no unpleasant harshness.

I've experienced both, but I also experienced the opposite: listening at very high SPL I thought this sounds harsh and is way too loud being - then when I went out of the room the sound became much clearer and wasn't harsh at all. I figured that my ears distorted more than the speakers.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

This has to be investigated. I have yet to hear small 2-way speakers with 5 inches woofer/mid-bass/midrange even properly mated with subwoofers, sound "big"... and repeating , it is not a matter of SPL.
On another notes. Passive high sensitivity (>95 dB 1m/1 Watt) , large speakers seem to have a better "dynamic jump" than the others, it seems to me, Horns n particular seem quite adept on that... On the active side DSP may address some issues but based on my current experience , I would not go HT LCR with speakers with a woofer smaller than 8 inches... A generalization, perhaps but with some grounding.

 

[FrantzM]

The pa speakers listed in the 1. post look a bit too similar to what the typical entertainer in the local pub uses, the kind that always sound horribly bad. But then I see the price - this is not the typical low-budget offering, so those may be different. But you don't need to choose those, you can choose something designed for the intended purpose - JTR has been mentioned.

There is a significant difference in sound character as well as output capacity between a typical hifi speaker with dome tweeter to something that has sufficient output capacity and radiation pattern control. A small speaker may seem sufficient when calculating the numbers on paper, but in reality they will never come close. There is a huge difference in realism and impact, across the whole frequency range. You need powerful lower midrange, to get that physical impact from transients like gunshots, and sound effects with very transient high frequency energy need high capacity even av higher frequencies.

To understand what this means, you need to experience the difference for yourself. A capable theater system can have a very addictive, realistic and powerful sound experience, and listening at 0dB is not too loud.

Emphasis is mine. I agree with most of your post. but , this is exactly the reason I asked the question: I am not able to experience this. COVID-19 has seen to it.
@cistercian post #69 had me very interested.
One advantage of PA speakers is the robustness and reliability. PA speakers cannot afford to be flaky and unreliable. They must perform the same day in and day out. For those outside the footprint of dealers, thus of repairs and returns, that is a priority... Great sound is foremost but a close second is reliability and, since shipping to far away places is involved, robustness,

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Sorry about the posts barrage and a bit OT.

I believe there is a slight condescension attached to the notion of PA speakers or PA system. It isn't entirely unjustified but I am sure I am not alone in coming from an encounter with a serious PA system and thinking that this is damn good and ... maybe ... superior to what I have at home... The mind quickly re-adjust and the years of conditioning helping , we revert to our systems, content but .. the doubt lingers ... from that point on...

I believe that we, the audiophiles, have been conditioned to take these PA systems, some of these miles ahead of ours in term of accuracy and capabilities, as being fundamentally inferior. We have for exemple for the longest eschews studio monitors in favor of, often, inferior audiophile solutions. How many audiophile 2-ways "mini-monitors" are at the level of accuracy of the Genelec 8030C, 8341, Neuman KH 80A, etc for close to the same price? Seriously? Name a few , please? and you have to add amplifers, cables , etc The aforementioned speakers are amplified, complete systems.. Yet you rarely hear them mentioned by audiophiles. This site and a very, very few other notwithstanding.
Reading the JBL SRX 800 Series Users Guide, one can only be impressed and a bit confused. I never knew that JBL "did" cardioid bass. The output of these subs is so massive that one could enjoy EQ a null in most homes with no issue (a bit of hyperbole to make a point) ...135 dB (!!!)peak SPL for the SRX818SP, enough to liquefy the innards and blast the ears to shred but .. it is not a matter of SPL but of headroom in a home situation.. a pair of these is about $2500 in the USA... Yet , not ever mentioned in subwoofers discussions. Imagine the kind of output , low level of distortion and linearity one can obtain with a pair of such subwoofers .., 100 dB at the listening position @ 20 Hz in most residential HT rooms, these subwoofers would be practically idling, producing electronics-like THD.
I will stop there and thank @echopraxia for this thread.

 

[cistercian]

Hi

Sorry about the posts barrage and a bit OT.

I believe there is a slight condescension attached to the notion of PA speakers or PA system. It isn't entirely unjustified but I am sure I am not alone in coming from an encounter with a serious PA system and thinking that this is damn good and ... maybe ... superior to what I have at home... The mind quickly re-adjust and the years of conditioning helping , we revert to our systems, content but .. the doubt lingers ... from that point on...


This was precisely my experience. I had previous experience as a young man hearing my favorite rock music played over
the sound system of a pals movie theater. It was nothing like a home system to be sure and the giant space was filled with
sound. I notice commercial sound and PA portable sound quality had increased in quality over the years as well. High end
systems with the DSP are frankly incredible in performance and driver quality has increased dramatically as well.
The horns used with compression drivers are better than they have ever been as well. Look at the horn on the M2 for example.

When I wanted big speakers I went high quality portable PA because in my opinion they offered better frequency response,
better rugged cabinets, and better rugged drivers. I also wanted the high SPL capability. Fancy pretty cabinets are too expensive
for my budget. I did not want to spend 5k for my speakers let alone much more so modern PA gear did the trick for me.
The big 3 way cabs were 1299 each and shipping was free for the pair!

HiFi speakers are expensive for what you get to me.

 

[echopraxia]

@FrantzM Yes! You understand exactly why I made this thread... I suspected for a while that many audiophiles may underestimate pro audio beyond just studio monitors. Even now, I’m not sure if many audiophiles have fully accepted just how good studio monitors are vs most audiophile speakers.

I have an update: I’ve rented a pair of JBL SRX835P from a local shop!

TLDR: Audiophiles need to end the condescension of PA speakers. The SRX835P indoors is very impressive. They sound very good even at close distances (1m), and even at extremely off axis positions (e.g. the “stand between the speakers test”). I am disappointed JBL doesn’t publish measurements though, but what I’m hearing from the SRX 835P, they have nothing to be ashamed about that I wasn’t able to tune with EQ.

I will post more impressions later, but I will say: With adequate room correction, these are excellent high fidelity speakers, indoors and out. For most songs, the sound quality seems to be 90% as good as my best systems (though that last 10% is important too). Of course, for some songs, it’s less than that, and for others, more.

For the price vs other hifi options, I am very tempted to buy a pair of these (with their subs) for my home theater room, which can also be a music room for those who like loud EDM / club type music (which is where it really shines). But it is also excellent at all other kinds of music too, and the smoothness of the treble for acoustic instruments etc. is actually really excellent, and I’m pretty picky about that (e.g. better than Revel F206, IMO).

For home theater, I think it is perfect... more than enough power, more than enough sound quality.

For music, I know many people who will be much more impressed by it than even e.g. my Salon2’s, because most people are not audiophiles in terms of obsessively seeking out that perfection of detail and accuracy for delicate orchestral performances etc. etc. A lot of people enjoy loud, big sound, with adequate fidelity. And the fidelity of these is far more than adequate; it’s excellent. As someone with Genelec 8351B’s and Revel Salon2’s, I am very impressed the fidelity is as good as it is. I suspect it’s better than the vast majority of “audiophile” speakers of the same price. The sound is good enough that I think if I bought them, I would not feel disappointed when using them to listen to music 90% of the time. And for home theater, they’re just perfect.

Lastly: The feature set you get with these is just unparalleled in the audiophile world. Full DSP configurability per speaker, all self contained active speakers (no need for external amps), self limiting/protecting operating software, built in two channel mixer capabilities, etc. I tried using the on board DSP to do room correction (which is very essential with so much bass power), and once you figure out the unintuitive software to program it, it works extremely well.

 

[cistercian]

@FrantzM Yes! You understand exactly why I made this thread... I suspected for a while that many audiophiles may underestimate pro audio beyond just studio monitors. Even now, I’m not sure if many audiophiles have fully accepted just how good studio monitors are vs most audiophile speakers.

I have an update: I’ve rented a pair of JBL SRX835P from a local shop!

TLDR: Audiophiles need to end the condescension of PA speakers. The SRX835P indoors is very impressive. They sounds very good even at close distances (1m) and extremely off axis. I am disappointed JBL doesn’t publish specs though, but what I’m hearing from the SRX 835P, they have nothing to be ashamed about that I wasn’t able to tune with EQ.

I will post more impressions later, but I will say: With adequate room correction, these are excellent high fidelity speakers, indoors and out. For most songs, the sound quality seems to be 90% as good as my best systems (though that last 10% is important too). Of course, for some songs, it’s less than that, and for others, more.

For the price vs other hifi options, I am very tempted to buy a pair of these (with their subs) for my home theater room, which can also be a music room for those who like loud EDM / club type music (which is where it really shines).

For home theater, I think it is perfect... more than enough power, more than enough sound quality.

For music, I know many people who will be much more impressed by it than even e.g. my Salon2’s, because most people are not audiophiles in terms of obsessively seeking out that perfection of detail and accuracy for delicate orchestral performances etc. etc. A lot of people enjoy loud, big sound, with adequate fidelity. And the fidelity of these is more than enough for most people. As someone with Genelec 8351B’s and Revel Salon2’s, I am very impressed the fidelity is as good as it is. I suspect it’s better than the vast majority of “audiophile” speakers of the same price.

Lastly: The feature set you get with these is just unparalleled in the audiophile world. Full DSP configurability per speaker, all self contained active speakers (no need for external amps), self limiting/protecting operating software, built in two channel mixer capabilities, etc. I tried using the on board DSP to do room correction (which is very essential with so much bass power), and once you figure out the unintuitive software to program it, it works extremely well.

Outstanding! If you put them behind a curtain and invited pals to listen I bet they would be surprised at the reveal after hearing them!
They are epic speakers.

 

[echopraxia]

Hi

This has to be investigated. I have yet to hear small 2-way speakers with 5 inches woofer/mid-bass/midrange even properly mated with subwoofers, sound "big"... and repeating , it is not a matter of SPL.
On another notes. Passive high sensitivity (>95 dB 1m/1 Watt) , large speakers seem to have a better "dynamic jump" than the others, it seems to me, Horns n particular seem quite adept on that... On the active side DSP may address some issues but based on my current experience , I would not go HT LCR with speakers with a woofer smaller than 8 inches... A generalization, perhaps but with some grounding.

This is true also. It is very observable and obvious when you hear it. My Genelec 8351B and Neumann KH120A are probably the closest any relatively compact speaker has come to overcoming their relatively compact size and sounding “big” despite it, but they still don’t sound as big as e.g. the SRX 835P.

For example, when my wife heard the SRX 835P playing some familiar EDM artists (heard live as well), the reaction was “Wow! WOW! Wow.... this sounds like an actual concert. WOW” (quote as close to verbatim as I can recall). My other speakers don’t produce quite this reaction. And it’s true that the other speakers don’t sound as “big” and “live”. The Salon2’s come close (and are much bigger soundstage due to wide dispersion, but that’s a different kind of “big” than what we’re talking about here), but are too wide dispersion I think for this kind of music — I’m sure JBL M2’s would have a similar reaction to the SRX 835P vs Salon2’s (though I don’t know exactly).

Yet if I show you the in-room measurements, I’m not sure any of this could be explained just from that. My best guess is that this “big live” sound is a simply product of narrow dispersion and high SPL capability without distortion or compression (none of which show up in frequency response plots).

 

[richard12511]

@FrantzM Yes! You understand exactly why I made this thread... I suspected for a while that many audiophiles may underestimate pro audio beyond just studio monitors. Even now, I’m not sure if many audiophiles have fully accepted just how good studio monitors are vs most audiophile speakers.

I have an update: I’ve rented a pair of JBL SRX835P from a local shop!

TLDR: Audiophiles need to end the condescension of PA speakers. The SRX835P indoors is very impressive. They sound very good even at close distances (1m), and even at extremely off axis positions (e.g. the “stand between the speakers test”). I am disappointed JBL doesn’t publish measurements though, but what I’m hearing from the SRX 835P, they have nothing to be ashamed about that I wasn’t able to tune with EQ.

I will post more impressions later, but I will say: With adequate room correction, these are excellent high fidelity speakers, indoors and out. For most songs, the sound quality seems to be 90% as good as my best systems (though that last 10% is important too). Of course, for some songs, it’s less than that, and for others, more.

For the price vs other hifi options, I am very tempted to buy a pair of these (with their subs) for my home theater room, which can also be a music room for those who like loud EDM / club type music (which is where it really shines). But it is also excellent at all other kinds of music too, and the smoothness of the treble for acoustic instruments etc. is actually really excellent, and I’m pretty picky about that (e.g. better than Revel F206, IMO).

For home theater, I think it is perfect... more than enough power, more than enough sound quality.

For music, I know many people who will be much more impressed by it than even e.g. my Salon2’s, because most people are not audiophiles in terms of obsessively seeking out that perfection of detail and accuracy for delicate orchestral performances etc. etc. A lot of people enjoy loud, big sound, with adequate fidelity. And the fidelity of these is far more than adequate; it’s excellent. As someone with Genelec 8351B’s and Revel Salon2’s, I am very impressed the fidelity is as good as it is. I suspect it’s better than the vast majority of “audiophile” speakers of the same price. The sound is good enough that I think if I bought them, I would not feel disappointed when using them to listen to music 90% of the time. And for home theater, they’re just perfect.

Lastly: The feature set you get with these is just unparalleled in the audiophile world. Full DSP configurability per speaker, all self contained active speakers (no need for external amps), self limiting/protecting operating software, built in two channel mixer capabilities, etc. I tried using the on board DSP to do room correction (which is very essential with so much bass power), and once you figure out the unintuitive software to program it, it works extremely well.

That's awesome that you're able to demo them. I think it's important to note that these are also like half the price of the JTRs, and fully active. I don't know about the Meyers, but I assume they're even more than the JTRs.

One of the things I dislike about JBL is that they seem to have so many different "obscure" models and lines that's it's hard to be aware of all of them. I actually had no idea these even existed until this thread. I recently bought the JBL EON615. The plan was to use them as additional sources in my main room, but I was just too dissatisfied with the sound, so I'm now looking for something else(I'm using the EONs in the garage now). Depending on how much you like the sound of these, I may give them a try.

 

[echopraxia]

That's awesome that you're able to demo them. I think it's important to note that these are also like half the price of the JTRs, and fully active. I don't know about the Meyers, but I assume they're even more than the JTRs.

One of the things I dislike about JBL is that they seem to have so many different "obscure" models and lines that's it's hard to be aware of all of them. I actually had no idea these even existed until this thread. I recently bought the JBL EON615. The plan was to use them as additional sources in my main room, but I was just too dissatisfied with the sound, so I'm now looking for something else. Depending on how much you like the sound of these, I may give them a try.

Yeah and it’s very opaque as to which product line is the “best”, e.g. their product websites do not make it clear whether the SRX line or PRX line is supposed to have the best sound quality, aside from maybe the price.

And yeah, the price of these combined with the performance I describe above is what is strongly tempting me to buy them for home theater and loud music room duty. I would not be surprised if the JTR’s are better. But for almost half the price of the JTR’s, these JBLs are also fully active and self contained with DSP etc. etc., and as mentioned have more than adequate sound quality for movies and for fun louder music enjoyment.

 

[FrantzM]

Saying this with fists clenched, fuming and ..:

I hate you Guys..

Now You have me tempted. Sight unseen ...

I never wanted to admit that HT and music reproduction have different requirements. I had back in the days 2 different systems, but it was because the family did enjoy movies while I wanted to listen to music ... I believed the 2-ch to be superior, better amp, speakers, and ... cables ... . It could well have been, but now ... I am not so sure ...
I will from that point have 2-systems. One HT based on PA speakers and subwoofers, the JBL SRX 800, foremost in my mind, based on the subjective rave reviews of 2 ASR members who will remain nameless ... The other for music .. we'll see and I will let you know ...