Pinnacle of vinyl playback

[svart-hvitt]

Technics just released news on the SP-10R(eference).

Specs will be unheard of (just a couple of specs are released).

Is this what happens when you combine technical research, knowhow and craftsmanship?

Any thoughts?

https://news.panasonic.co.uk/techni...eference-class-direct-drive-turntable-sp-10r/

http://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2017/08/en170831-8/en170831-8.html

 

[svart-hvitt]

Seems like analog devices attract less attention here. So let me try and start your imaginations.

Take a look a the picture below. That' supposed to be (among) the world's best turntables. But specifications wise it's probably way behind Panasonic's Technics SP-10R.

Ockham's razor. KISS. Ring a bell?

What happens in audio if amateurs approach a complex problem? Is overengineering a solution for lack of competence?

What happens in the turntable market if Panasonic just released a player that is unbeatable specifications wise? Will people still pay more for less hifi?

 

[Cosmik]

What happens in audio if amateurs approach a complex problem? Is overengineering a solution for lack of competence?

What happens in the turntable market if Panasonic just released a player that is unbeatable specifications wise? Will people still pay more for less hifi?

Like building a model steam train, turntable technology is easy enough for anyone to understand and have a go at. Add a small microcontroller and some simple circuitry and you can lock the motor to a crystal and enjoy tweaking a control loop - maybe you can get better wow and flutter than the best turntable of 40 years ago. Or better specs than a $500,000 turntable made of platinum, etc. It's a nice little playground for mechanically-minded hobbyists.

(Building speakers as I have is another one of those playgrounds for hobbyists!)

 

[svart-hvitt]

Sure, TT technology is simple. But not if you want to push boundaries. Running 100 meters is simple, but it's not so simple winning an Olympic medal in said contest. And remember, Olympic records have little practical value beyond entertainment...

Besides, I think vinyl playback is the one area where tweaking and specs improving still make for an improved sonic quality.

Interestingly, (many of) the bigger and more expensive turntables don't play the specifications card. Which begs the question if SP-10's unbeatable specs will result in market success for Panasonic.

 

[RayDunzl]

Vinyl occupies its own space in this "hobby". I haven't participated in it since 1974.

Consider Radio Control Aircraft:

I had a few RC Sailplanes in the past, with bungee launch (thermal) and hand-launch (slope soaring). Additional options are winch and tow launches.

Now there are electric powered variations, in which I might become interested in when I have nothing better to do.

Like turntables (and everything else), there are ranges of participation and performance.

Gentle Lady - two channels, elevator, rudder, 2 meter wing,

Full on scale: you name it, it probably has it - rudder, elevator, ailerons, flaps, spoilers, winch release, brakes, ballast release, vario feedback to the pilot (rising/descending in a thermal), correlation between control surfaces (rudder and ailerons interact, for example), live camera view, GPS tracking, even autopilot or silicon gyro stabilization can be implemented.

And as many variations (and costs) as you can imagine.

They all fly. They all satisfy different owners.

My best was like this:

100 inch wing (Standard Class) - Rudder, elevator, ailerons, flaps, and tow-hook release. It was pretty fast with the flaps set to 5 degrees negative (up, not down), made a nice sound in the air if you flew it past your head at top speed.

All Balsa back then. Tweak to your heart's delight.

 

[amirm]

92 db signal to noise is quite impressive!

 

[RayDunzl]

Sorry about the noise I added.

But I voted!

 

[svart-hvitt]

REGARDING PRICE

These prises are from Stereo Buyer's Guide in 1989*:

SP-10Mk2 $1550
SH-10B3 $950
SP-10mk3 $2840
SH-10B5 $1230

Since then consumer inflation has been around 100% in total. Which means the inflation adjusted price of the SP-10mk3 is about $5600.

The question is: Have hifi prices followed consumer prices in general? Well, if you look at electronic devices in general, there has been a Moore's law to the prices of them. Accordingly, $5600 is a high estimate. However, state of the art hifi has had much higher inflation than the CPI index suggests. Acccordingly, $5600 is a low estimate.

The price of the SP-10R will be set by marketing people, not by engineering effforts and costs. My guess is that the marketing people want to pump up the price from $5600. So I guess the price will be a bit higher; $7000 for the turntable plus the PSU. Plinth and arm come at an additional cost.

*Source: http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/sp10page.html#SP10

 

[RayDunzl]

Have hifi prices followed consumer prices in general?

"By the end of 1912, three basic models of the Edison Disc Phonograph had been designed, ranging in price from $150 to $250, and the company salesmen took them around the country. Soon after, the choice of models was extended to feature less expensive players and luxury machines in stylish wood cabinets. Prices for the discs ranged from $1.15 to $4.25, but later were changed to $1.35 to $2.25. The discs were expensive to make because of the complicated chemical processes used for them."

Convert from 1912 to 2017 dollars: $1 in 1912 → $24.42 in 2017

Player: $150 x 24.42 = $3663

 

[svart-hvitt]

"By the end of 1912, three basic models of the Edison Disc Phonograph had been designed, ranging in price from $150 to $250, and the company salesmen took them around the country. Soon after, the choice of models was extended to feature less expensive players and luxury machines in stylish wood cabinets. Prices for the discs ranged from $1.15 to $4.25, but later were changed to $1.35 to $2.25. The discs were expensive to make because of the complicated chemical processes used for them."

Convert from 1912 to 2017 dollars: $1 in 1912 → $24.42 in 2017

Player: $150 x 24.42 = $3663

Exactly! I guess top hifi gear always was conspicuous consumption, and more so in 2017 than in 1989, and more in 1989 than in 1912.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Seems like analog devices attract less attention here. So let me try and start your imaginations.

Take a look a the picture below. That' supposed to be (among) the world's best turntables. But specifications wise it's probably way behind Panasonic's Technics SP-10R.

Ockham's razor. KISS. Ring a bell?

What happens in audio if amateurs approach a complex problem? Is overengineering a solution for lack of competence?

What happens in the turntable market if Panasonic just released a player that is unbeatable specifications wise? Will people still pay more for less hifi?

Reminds me of how good it was when I purchased this in 1984:

 

[watchnerd]

Technics just released news on the SP-10R(eference).

Specs will be unheard of (just a couple of specs are released).

Is this what happens when you combine technical research, knowhow and craftsmanship?

Any thoughts?

https://news.panasonic.co.uk/techni...eference-class-direct-drive-turntable-sp-10r/

http://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2017/08/en170831-8/en170831-8.html

Well, damn...I was thinking of buying a SL-1200G in the next few months.

Glad I didn't pull the trigger on it before reading about this.

Amazing wow & flutter stats...too bad I can't find an LP in my collection that doesn't have a slightly off-center spindle hole...

 

[watchnerd]

Take a look a the picture below. That' supposed to be (among) the world's best turntables. But specifications wise it's probably way behind Panasonic's Technics SP-10R.

Spec-wise, it's only about on par with the DJ favorite, the Technics SL-1200.

 

[watchnerd]

Interestingly, (many of) the bigger and more expensive turntables don't play the specifications card. Which begs the question if SP-10's unbeatable specs will result in market success for Panasonic.

Technics has made turntables with better specs than audiophile favorite brands since the late the 1980s with the direct-drive SL-1200, which has SNR on par with high-end VPI (~78 dB) and trounces belt-drives for speed stability / wow & flutter.

And, yet, it never got audiophile cred.

Only now with the $4k reissue are some audiophiles willing to concede the new model some respect.

So, no, superior specs don't seem to matter for most vinyl enthusiasts.

(Although they do matter for me...I've brought Platterspeed into record shops and watched the horror...)

 

[Blumlein 88]

Well, damn...I was thinking of buying a SL-1200G in the next few months.

Glad I didn't pull the trigger on it before reading about this.

Amazing wow & flutter stats...too bad I can't find an LP in my collection that doesn't have a slightly off-center spindle hole...

You just need the Nakamichi turntable.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

In a World where old idler pulleys Turntables have gained traction, I don't think the specs will sway anyone. Reviews and the TT adoption by some will make all the difference . Technics will be wise to find ways to have this model lands in some systems whose owners well viewed by audiophiles (Oh yes ! People we have our gurus too) or to partner with some audiophiles favorite speakers or electronics brands to present/launch this TT. While they're at it, they should think about reviving the RS-1500 RTR machines too...
I don't care enough about Vinyl to go any further than the present SP-10 MK2 but ... you never know

 

[Cosmik]

Hmm. This is beginning to resemble any old audio forum. Could someone explain scientifically why vinyl is worth listening to?

(And not because "I still have a large collection of LPs...". Let's assume you could already have digitised them, and every recording is available on streaming anyway ).

 

[Dynamix]

Could someone explain scientifically why vinyl is worth listening to?

Why should that be necessary? As long as no one makes dubious claims like "analog is inherently more accurate than digital", as is often seen on certain other fora, what would be the point?

 

[Cosmik]

Why should that be necessary? As long as no one makes dubious claims like "analog is inherently more accurate than digital", as is often seen on certain other fora, what would be the point?

I thought this was supposed to be a science-based forum..?

I could suggest a scientific reason why vinyl might have certain audible qualities that people like: it gets acoustic feedback from the room, and cancels/reinforces it. I honestly can't think of anything else about it that is worth discussing here.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Hmm. This is beginning to resemble any old audio forum. Could someone explain scientifically why vinyl is worth listening to?

(And not because "I still have a large collection of LPs...". Let's assume you could already have digitised them, and every recording is available on streaming anyway ).

I am happy you brought this up. This was my first thread on ASR and the choice of theme had an intention outside of a debate on state of the art vinyl playback.

My point is: Is audio exclusively about perfectioning the reproduction of the audio wave is it enters the ear in listening position?

If the answer is 'yes', then vinyl has no place due to the distribution format's inferior characteristics compared to digital formats and distribution.

If the answer is 'it's more complicated, stupid!', then we open up another avenue of discussions; for example:

=> Can science be employed to enhance older technology?
=> Has aesthetics a place in audio?

Sail boats were made redundant a long time ago due to motorized boats being the rational choice in commercial traffic. Yet, sail boats are popular among hobbyists and billionaires alike. Think about America's Cup: Old sail technology in combination with state of the art modern technology.

Do you wear a watch? Timex is the rational choice. But people still pay more for finer watches. My impression is that Americans are more often seen with a Timex than Europeans who wear more expensive watches on average. Maybe this is a cultural thing?

May I answer my own questions? Yes, I think vinyl has its place in audio because of its aesthetic appeal, because vinyl can combine modern and old technology in a fascinating package - well aware of the fact that digital is technologically superior and a cheaper way to the goal of reproducing sound waves.

Lastly, just one detail: Sometimes a vinyl version is mastered differently than the easily available streaming version.