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Objective and Subjective

AudioStudies

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A lot has been said on this subject. I hope that an objective person would realize the difficulty in attaining the goal of the "original artist intent" for any given piece of music. The original artist may not get what was intended for any number of reasons, to include an inept recording engineer, equipment malfunctions, other members of the band not performing well, limitations of microphones, room acoustic problems of the venue, etc. Therefore the best playback system in the world may not reproduce the original artist intent for the music. That is not to say the accurate reproduction of whatever appears on the media (CD for example) should not be someone's goal; yet I sense a belief system in the audio circles that this implies hearing the music as the original artists intended. That may or may not be the case.

With respect to some audio components, DACs for example, the subjective crowd has gone bonkers. Spending thousands, if not over ten thousand, on a device that by 2020 standards has relatively simple tasks. Convert the signal from digital to analog and then output a clean signal. This can be done very well inexpensively. Delta-Sigma DACs were shown to be effective many years ago, and continue to improve. As do the op amps for the DAC output stage. No one in 2020 needs a R2R DAC, and a well-designed one with an audio jewelry look may be justified by the wealthy, it is doubtful that such a DAC could be distinguished from a modestly priced Delta-Sigma DAC in a blind listening test. I am completely in the objective camp when it comes to DACs.

I know many people on ASR would consider anybody that prefers a tube preamp, a subjective person, going down the wrong path. Fair enough, but I think I am an objective person, yet I still prefer tube preamps and will present my reasons. I don't dispute that use of tube preamps is a coloration, for lack of a better word. Nevertheless, for me it is a beautiful one that (to my tastes) makes the music seem more pleasant. So, OK, OK, many of you out there are going to say, I should be striving for accurate reproduction of the CD first, and subsequent to that use methodologies to color the sound to my liking. Although I am fine with others taking that approach, I don't think it can work well for me for objective reasons:

1. The first reason is that I already own several tube preamps, so I already have the gear to accomplish the coloration to my liking. It would involve a bit of a financial hit to sell all these tube preamps, and then purchase solid-state gear.

2. The second reason, is that I don't know how to go about achieving the same type of coloration in other ways. I know, I know, many of you may respond, well there is this way, and also that way . . . fair enough but I don't want to use computer software. My audio systems (and I have several) for the most part are non-computer based. That is I have music (all 16 bit, 44.1 kHz) in wav files that I have copied to thumb drives and SD cards, and then I have components that can play these media without a computer being incorporated into the audio system (for most of my systems). I suppose there may be some gear that I can buy from the pro audio market that may be able to accomplish this coloration, but I don't want to go through the learning curve on that stuff, and I have my doubts that this approach would be anywhere near as effective as the high end preamps that I currently own.

3. The third reason, has to do with the point I made at the very start of this post, that is, the original artist intent is often lost anyway by the time it reaches my wav files. In addition to the aforementioned reasons, I don't know of any original artist who knows about the room acoustics in my listening room. I will likely move forward with room correction incorporated into components (non-computer) in some of my systems, and that may overcome my last point. But I think my overall point here, is that this original artist intent thing is a bit over-rated. I think too much focus on it can lead to situations wherein people jump through hoop after hoop, thinking they are achieving it, when in many cases they are not. And that hoop jumping may cause unpleasant sounds.

So, call me a pure subjective person if you like. But consider my stance on DACs (totally objective); and at least if you don't agree with my reasons for preferring tube preamps, know that I did some objective thinking to arrive at that preference.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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Preferences are preferences. You can prefer whatever you want. It's when claims are made about one thing being more "musical" or more "real" than another that we have problems.

As far as artist intent goes, most of us are well-aware that that is completely impossible to know. In the end, all we have is the recording. The artists and engineers signed off on that and put it out in the world. Accurately reproducing that to the best of our abilities is a worthy endeavor.
 

solderdude

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So, call me a pure subjective person if you like. But consider my stance on DACs (totally objective); and at least if you don't agree with my reasons for preferring tube preamps, know that I did some objective thinking to arrive at that preference.

Hi mister 'subjective person'.
Very little wrong with preferring tubes here and there if that's what makes it more pleasant.
As long as you don't claim it is 'returning musicality' that seems to be lost when tubes aren't used its all fine.
When knowing and seeing the glowy mysterious and gorgious looking audio jewelry tubes will bring more enjoyment then why not ?

The eyes and brain are also input for music enjoyment for sure.
That is weighing more than the actual changes a well designed tube pre- will bring in the actual electrical signal.
 

tomtoo

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What ever you enjoy you enjoy. More bass, more highs, more 2"end harmonics? Enjoy!
But never forget you change the signal. Thats it, no problem. If you think the record sounds better with more THD enjoy! But, and thats importend, dont talk about hifi. Talk about your taste.
 

Jimbob54

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A lot has been said on this subject. I hope that an objective person would realize the difficulty in attaining the goal of the "original artist intent" for any given piece of music. The original artist may not get what was intended for any number of reasons, to include an inept recording engineer, equipment malfunctions, other members of the band not performing well, limitations of microphones, room acoustic problems of the venue, etc. Therefore the best playback system in the world may not reproduce the original artist intent for the music. That is not to say the accurate reproduction of whatever appears on the media (CD for example) should not be someone's goal; yet I sense a belief system in the audio circles that this implies hearing the music as the original artists intended. That may or may not be the case.

With respect to some audio components, DACs for example, the subjective crowd has gone bonkers. Spending thousands, if not over ten thousand, on a device that by 2020 standards has relatively simple tasks. Convert the signal from digital to analog and then output a clean signal. This can be done very well inexpensively. Delta-Sigma DACs were shown to be effective many years ago, and continue to improve. As do the op amps for the DAC output stage. No one in 2020 needs a R2R DAC, and a well-designed one with an audio jewelry look may be justified by the wealthy, it is doubtful that such a DAC could be distinguished from a modestly priced Delta-Sigma DAC in a blind listening test. I am completely in the objective camp when it comes to DACs.

I know many people on ASR would consider anybody that prefers a tube preamp, a subjective person, going down the wrong path. Fair enough, but I think I am an objective person, yet I still prefer tube preamps and will present my reasons. I don't dispute that use of tube preamps is a coloration, for lack of a better word. Nevertheless, for me it is a beautiful one that (to my tastes) makes the music seem more pleasant. So, OK, OK, many of you out there are going to say, I should be striving for accurate reproduction of the CD first, and subsequent to that use methodologies to color the sound to my liking. Although I am fine with others taking that approach, I don't think it can work well for me for objective reasons:

1. The first reason is that I already own several tube preamps, so I already have the gear to accomplish the coloration to my liking. It would involve a bit of a financial hit to sell all these tube preamps, and then purchase solid-state gear.

2. The second reason, is that I don't know how to go about achieving the same type of coloration in other ways. I know, I know, many of you may respond, well there is this way, and also that way . . . fair enough but I don't want to use computer software. My audio systems (and I have several) for the most part are non-computer based. That is I have music (all 16 bit, 44.1 kHz) in wav files that I have copied to thumb drives and SD cards, and then I have components that can play these media without a computer being incorporated into the audio system (for most of my systems). I suppose there may be some gear that I can buy from the pro audio market that may be able to accomplish this coloration, but I don't want to go through the learning curve on that stuff, and I have my doubts that this approach would be anywhere near as effective as the high end preamps that I currently own.

3. The third reason, has to do with the point I made at the very start of this post, that is, the original artist intent is often lost anyway by the time it reaches my wav files. In addition to the aforementioned reasons, I don't know of any original artist who knows about the room acoustics in my listening room. I will likely move forward with room correction incorporated into components (non-computer) in some of my systems, and that may overcome my last point. But I think my overall point here, is that this original artist intent thing is a bit over-rated. I think too much focus on it can lead to situations wherein people jump through hoop after hoop, thinking they are achieving it, when in many cases they are not. And that hoop jumping may cause unpleasant sounds.

So, call me a pure subjective person if you like. But consider my stance on DACs (totally objective); and at least if you don't agree with my reasons for preferring tube preamps, know that I did some objective thinking to arrive at that preference.

I think its possible to massively overstate the "objective"/ "subjective" divide. We are all subjective listeners when it comes to music for pleasure. Its in the selection and building of systems that the differences start to arise.

Others have said it well already, do what you like, prefer what you like. Its just, to my thinking, better to know why you like something and what else is available before jumping to flashy, exotic and more importantly expensive options then proclaiming you've hit the apex. You sound far from that.
 

beefkabob

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If you like to knowingly wash your hands and dishes with dirty water, that's fine. Weird but fine. You're not subjectivist for that. If you think that the imperfections of the recording process justify your oddity, well, that's BS. If think you are actually getting better sound then you are wrong too.
 

solderdude

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With tube pre's it is very likely very low (below audible thresholds) amounts of 'pleasant distortion' is added.
Chances are the signal isn't changed audible.
Frequency response using tubes can also easily reach hundreds of kHz.
In this particular case I would rather chalk the preference to sighted listening. All good. The eyes and brain also help with hearing improved sound.
 

Sukie

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An objectivist still has subjective preferences. A subjectivist renames their preferences as quantifiable realities. In other words they make universal claims "this dac/amp is more musical/less digital/gets deeper into the mix". This isn't confined to audio, it's there in all walks of life: the conflation of preference and fact. (Whether preference and fact can ever be fully separated is another matter).

In actual fact I don't think that you're expressing a subjectivist position. You are stating what you like without making some universal claim about these opinions. I don't share your preferences and nor should I.

The bit about artist intention is a bit strange though. I look for transparency in my set up so that I can listen to the recording as it was intended to be. Sometimes this is as the artist intended it to be and sometimes it isn't.
 

levimax

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With tube pre's it is very likely very low (below audible thresholds) amounts of 'pleasant distortion' is added.
Chances are the signal isn't changed audible.
Frequency response using tubes can also easily reach hundreds of kHz.
In this particular case I would rather chalk the preference to sighted listening. All good. The eyes and brain also help with hearing improved sound.
+1 a good tube pre-amp is indistinguishable from a good SS amp in my experience. If you want some "tube sound" I have found tube power amps to have more of an effect probably because of higher output impedance and it's interaction with the speakers. Rather than DSP if you want to try out what a tube power amp would sound like with your speakers you can put a 1 ohm 10 watt resistor in the speaker cables to simulate higher output impedance.
 

Killingbeans

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But I think my overall point here, is that this original artist intent thing is a bit over-rated. I think too much focus on it can lead to situations wherein people jump through hoop after hoop, thinking they are achieving it, when in many cases they are not. And that hoop jumping may cause unpleasant sounds.

It's all about chasing as few unicorns as possible. True.

That being said, I'd like to know the exact nature of those 'unpleasant sounds'? If it's audible, it's also objectifiable. And if it's objectifiable, it can be avoided.
 
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A

AudioStudies

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exact nature
I sometimes hear unpleasant sounds in playback, but I don't always know their exact nature. I agree that if we know the exact nature of audible sounds, then there may be ways to avoid such sounds. With tubes in the preamp stage, I find more pleasantness in playback; but that is not to say playback with a solid-state preamp would necessarily be unpleasant.
 
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AudioStudies

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If you like to knowingly wash your hands and dishes with dirty water, that's fine. Weird but fine. You're not subjectivist for that. If you think that the imperfections of the recording process justify your oddity, well, that's BS. If think you are actually getting better sound then you are wrong too.
I never said that. I gave other reasons as well for my choices.
 
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AudioStudies

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With tube pre's it is very likely very low (below audible thresholds) amounts of 'pleasant distortion' is added.
Especially since I prefer the most accurate tube preamps and tubes as well. Not sure if it is below audible threshold because I think that I could always distinguish tubes in a system, but low levels for sure, and I don't think it is profoundly different than the sound of a solid-state preamp.
 
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Frank Dernie

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The best we can hope for is to accurately reproduce the recording we have.
There is nothing else.
There is no ethereal essence of performers musical intent recorded anywhere that we can invent a device to decode.

Imagining that any aspect of a hifi could in some way inject some sort of musical intent of a performer is going absurdly far.

If one doesn't like the result mixed by the engineer and (presumably) signed off and approved before release there are easier and more repeatable ways of changing its sound than using coloured playback equipment, which one is then stuck with overlaying the same colouration over all the recordings we play, wanted or not.
 
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AudioStudies

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Imagining that any aspect of a hifi could in some way inject some sort of musical intent of a performer is going absurdly far.
I never imagined that and I agree with you. What I am implying is that with many, many recordings it is impossible to get to the original artist intent even with solid-state equipment. Therefore, I don't know that "not getting to the original artist intent" is such a bad thing for tube preamps.
 
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egellings

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I think that well designed tube preamps can be pretty colorless, just like their solid state counterparts. The problem starts when tubes are used to do power amps. The preamp is a small signal rather high internal impedance device that doesn't have to drive a difficult impedance. Should be pretty doable. Power amps, again, are another story.
 

MSTARK

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Chasing absolute accuracy can get just as obsessive as chasing your own interpretation of sound reproduction nirvana. I’m for neither camp. However, the arrogant side of me wants to manipulate those state of the art mastering facilities with best ears behind the console to my personal taste. But I’m open minded and I will entertain anyone’s offer to set up a perfectly flat response speakers with ultra linear, colorless front end with undetectable distortion to prove me wrong. But there’s fat chance that I would be wowed by this wonder.
 

Hayabusa

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With tube pre's it is very likely very low (below audible thresholds) amounts of 'pleasant distortion' is added.
Chances are the signal isn't changed audible.

If its 'pleasant' it seems to be also audible?
 
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