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Ultimate 1ET400A Purifi Amplifier sonic shootout - €820 to €8,344

LTig

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None of the mods I do have anything to do with measurements. The amp will measure the same before and after the mods. However, it will be way, way better sounding. I understand that most people who post on this forum don't believe this is possible.

Back in the late 1970s I did a straight wire bypass test on 4 different 7 inch pieces of wire versus a one half inch wire (done in stereo using a master tape of myself playing music). None of the 7 inch wires were even close to the "straight wire"....the results would still be the same today but today's wires are much better so the difference would be much smaller. Of course, this was a listening test......none of the wires would measure anything.
Uh huh.
The best measuring instrument for audio is our ears. We hear things that machines just don't register. Maybe over time we will make a machine that can detect all that we hear.
EDIT: So you think @amirm's AP is worse than the whole audio chain combined you use when listening to a recording? If not how could the things you hear be registered by and transfered through the audio chain?
"The first and most basic goal of science is to describe. This goal is achieved by making careful observations." The best way to observe audio is to use your ears.......listen. Once you realize you can trust what you hear......you are in for a fun infinite ride.
Once you use only your ears while listening you will realize that all differences disappear.
 
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Ric Schultz

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So you have put a much higher DC resistance coil in. OK.

So why didnt Bruno do this if its that simple to improve the sound and DCR doesnt matter?

As i said, please send your modified unit into Amir to be evaluated.

"5. Clean up the power amp output wiring. "Normally" the output power comes off the output coil on the Purifi board and then through the edge connector (what? that silly thing again!?) "

You do realise the feedback sense is after the connector?

"For those that want something even more transparent and dynamic: I just talked to VTV Audio today (8-8-2020) and we discussed using the 3000 watt Hypex power supply for both the Purifi mono blocks and NC1200 mono blocks"

Why would you do that????? Why would you use 3kW PSU with a module that might require 500-600 watts at most?

"No one in the world has ever made an Ncore 500, 1200 or Purifi amp using the 3000 watt supply."

Yeah, there is a good reason for that.

I did not say my coil has higher resistance. I did not say DCR does not matter. If you want to know what Bruno thinks.....you need to ask him. Most people (who listen) know that larger power supplies sound better......even with one watt playing. It is interesting that you need to call people names and tell them they are delusional......this is so funny. Again, three fingers are pointing back to you. There is nothing wrong.....just differences of opinion. Open your heart, open your mind, open your ears.......yes, crystals work too. Lots of things you would never try make the sound different and sometimes better. But, we could go on and on about nothing. There is nothing more to say. You are blessed, you are loved and you are beautiful.
 

mil

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We have on one side of the line the objectivists.....who think that everything can be measured and do not do listening tests (unless they are blind, double blind and of course done by people who have no expectation bias) On the other end of the spectrum you have the complete subjectivists....who listen to everything and believe everything makes a sonic difference......and then there are those in between.....who believe some stuff you can hear but discount some other things they think are too way out there. This is the old game of audio......old as Edison himself. This forum is the "total objectivists" forum. From what I can gather I would say the total objectivists are about maybe 15% of serious audiophiles. However, you guys make a lot of noise for such a minority party. Diyaudio.....has lots of objectivists too....not as many as here. But, if you look at most of all the other forums and online and printed audio magazines.....they are almost entirely subjectivist oriented. Why is this? Are 85% of the people just sheep.....buying voodoo things that make no sonic difference?

What if the subjectivists are correct and you can hear every tiny thing you do? That would be weird, eh?

It really does not matter what anyone believes........I really want everyone to be happy. So, if it makes you happy to believe that only measurements mean something about sound.......then I am happy for you. For your happiness makes me happy......and my happiness makes you happy. That is how the game is set up. Every thought you think and every feeling you have effects the entire planet. Can you dig it?

Enjoy the dance. The evolution of the soul is to go from critic/make wrong/separateness/unhappiness to the sweet make right/accepting/enjoying/togetherness of love and joy. When you point your finger at someone.....three are pointing back at you. You only see your own self in everything. If you totally love yourself.....you love EVERYONE. If you live your life as if every person is your son or daughter......your mother or father......you brother or sister......your lover........WOW!.....what joy and upliftment this gives to everyone.

When I am really bored I like to watch Youtube videos where they AB audiophile cables and I am trying really hard to hear any differences. My favorite ones of course are the Power cable swaps (probably because of the promised improvements in clarity and wider sound stage).

But although I am trying my best with the equipment I have, I am still not able to hear any difference. So I have concluded that I am lacking the imagination skills to ever become a serious audiophile like the rest of the people who comment on those videos. Although I still hope my imagination will overcome my senses and I will enter the real audiophile nirvana one day.
 

HooStat

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I have no experience in electronics, so this is truly an honest question for the more technically inclined. It seems that the differences are in the input buffers and the power supplies. Part of that is for cost reasons, but I imagine that some circuit designers have more technical reasons for the approach they have taken. Does anybody care to explain some of these different approaches?
 

PaulD

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We have on one side of the line the objectivists.....who think that everything can be measured and do not do listening tests (unless they are blind, double blind and of course done by people who have no expectation bias) On the other end of the spectrum you have the complete subjectivists....who listen to everything and believe everything makes a sonic difference......and then there are those in between.....who believe some stuff you can hear but discount some other things they think are too way out there. This is the old game of audio......old as Edison himself. This forum is the "total objectivists" forum. From what I can gather I would say the total objectivists are about maybe 15% of serious audiophiles. However, you guys make a lot of noise for such a minority party. Diyaudio.....has lots of objectivists too....not as many as here. But, if you look at most of all the other forums and online and printed audio magazines.....they are almost entirely subjectivist oriented. Why is this? Are 85% of the people just sheep.....buying voodoo things that make no sonic difference?
No, people like you are misleading them... and possibly yourself.

What if the subjectivists are correct and you can hear every tiny thing you do? That would be weird, eh?
Except, that is has been proven that subjectivists are only expressing their biases - the differences are not in the auditory chain, they are in the other perceptions (looks, expectations, etc etc) and that is ok, just call it what it is, do not say it sounds better when in fact you just like the look or the fantasy of some magic object you "believe" in.

It really does not matter what anyone believes........I really want everyone to be happy. So, if it makes you happy to believe that only measurements mean something about sound.......then I am happy for you. For your happiness makes me happy......and my happiness makes you happy. That is how the game is set up. Every thought you think and every feeling you have effects the entire planet. Can you dig it?
That is fine, but you cannot say "this magic gizmo makes it sound SO much better", because people like me will say prove it, and we know you are wrong. What would make me happy, is for people not to mislead others with unproven claims of sound quality. That is just selling snake oil.

Engineering works well, I would say try taking an engineering approach! And you cannot say that engineering does not work, that too has been proven...

Enjoy the dance. The evolution of the soul is to go from critic/make wrong/separateness/unhappiness to the sweet make right/accepting/enjoying/togetherness of love and joy. When you point your finger at someone.....three are pointing back at you. You only see your own self in everything. If you totally love yourself.....you love EVERYONE. If you live your life as if every person is your son or daughter......your mother or father......you brother or sister......your lover........WOW!.....what joy and upliftment this gives to everyone.
I cannot in good conscience express love for someone, or even respect, by deceiving them with rubbish claims about sound quality or anything else. To me that is just exploiting people, not expressing love.
 
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March Audio

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I did not say my coil has higher resistance. I did not say DCR does not matter. If you want to know what Bruno thinks.....you need to ask him. Most people (who listen) know that larger power supplies sound better......even with one watt playing. It is interesting that you need to call people names and tell them they are delusional......this is so funny. Again, three fingers are pointing back to you. There is nothing wrong.....just differences of opinion. Open your heart, open your mind, open your ears.......yes, crystals work too. Lots of things you would never try make the sound different and sometimes better. But, we could go on and on about nothing. There is nothing more to say. You are blessed, you are loved and you are beautiful.
Your coil is most definitely higher resistance unless it is massive in physical size and weight. An air coil needs massively more turns to achieve the same inductance as a ferrite cored one. Hence significantly longer cable and more resistance. The only way you can combat this is by using cable with a significantly larger CSA. The fact that you clearly don't know this exposes your lack of electronics knowledge.

I already know what Bruno thinks. He thinks the coil he implemented was the right and best choice. He knows and understands electronics design, you don't.

An excessively large power supply sounds no better. Why would it? A 600 watt psu would supply a single Purifi module perfectly.

This is not just a difference of opinion. This is frankly common sense verses loony tunes nonsense.

Open my heart and mind? Sorry but audio reproduction is engineering and science, it is not faith and religion.
 
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LTig

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I did not say my coil has higher resistance. I did not say DCR does not matter. If you want to know what Bruno thinks.....you need to ask him. Most people (who listen) know that larger power supplies sound better......even with one watt playing.
These are the people who listen with their ears, eyes and the knowledge about the price and what others had told them in advance - which the brain translates into better sound. It happens to all of us, its how the human brain works. Even knowing this bias does not help to evade it.
It is interesting that you need to call people names and tell them they are delusional......this is so funny. Again, three fingers are pointing back to you. There is nothing wrong.....just differences of opinion. Open your heart, open your mind, open your ears.......yes, crystals work too. Lots of things you would never try make the sound different and sometimes better. But, we could go on and on about nothing. There is nothing more to say. You are blessed, you are loved and you are beautiful.
We are clearly entering the region of faith and religion - not my business, sorry.
 

boXem

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If you totally love yourself.....you love EVERYONE.
Anybody with a minimum of self respect, and respect for the others, would never ever touch the coil from a self oscillating amplifier with post filter feedback while hoping to improve whatever.
Since you seem to love as much yourself, other people and capital letters,




DO NOT TOUCH THE F...ING COIL!!!




Said with love, obviously ;).
 

tmtomh

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For now, I will let the competition guess as to what I am doing. I may reveal more later.

We are quivering with anticipation.

You experiment and listen and you will know.

If I purchase your mods and I don't hear the claimed differences, do you have a money-back guarantee?

We have on one side of the line the objectivists.....who think that everything can be measured and do not do listening tests (unless they are blind, double blind and of course done by people who have no expectation bias) On the other end of the spectrum you have the complete subjectivists....who listen to everything and believe everything makes a sonic difference......and then there are those in between.....who believe some stuff you can hear but discount some other things they think are too way out there. This is the old game of audio......old as Edison himself. This forum is the "total objectivists" forum. From what I can gather I would say the total objectivists are about maybe 15% of serious audiophiles. However, you guys make a lot of noise for such a minority party. Diyaudio.....has lots of objectivists too....not as many as here. But, if you look at most of all the other forums and online and printed audio magazines.....they are almost entirely subjectivist oriented. Why is this? Are 85% of the people just sheep.....buying voodoo things that make no sonic difference?

1. Facts are not decided by majority vote.
2. Why post here if this is barren soil for selling your products?

What if the subjectivists are correct and you can hear every tiny thing you do? That would be weird, eh?

What if the Earth is flat and the overwhelming evidence to the contrary is actually the result of a series of phenomena that have been mis-recognized for centuries? That would be weird, eh?

Doesn't matter, though, because your business model doesn't rely on subjectivists being correct. It relies on your ability to confuse the possible with the plausible. So, again, for your own sake you'd better hope that this question never actually gets answered in a way that's 100% airtight to everyone, because in that event you won't have any customers.

It really does not matter what anyone believes.

It does, actually - but again, your ability to peddle what you're peddling depends upon this negation of knowledge ("it doesn't matter what anyone believes"). Without an artificially created Zone of Ignorance, you've got no customers.

For your happiness makes me happy......and my happiness makes you happy. That is how the game is set up. Every thought you think and every feeling you have effects the entire planet. Can you dig it?

Enjoy the dance. The evolution of the soul is to go from critic/make wrong/separateness/unhappiness to the sweet make right/accepting/enjoying/togetherness of love and joy. When you point your finger at someone.....three are pointing back at you. You only see your own self in everything. If you totally love yourself.....you love EVERYONE. If you live your life as if every person is your son or daughter......your mother or father......you brother or sister......your lover........WOW!.....what joy and upliftment this gives to everyone.

Very good points. I eagerly await your upcoming Love and Happiness Wiring, Coil, and Crystal Combo Mod Package, only $1995 (amplifier not included). :)
 

Ric Schultz

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The only thing that is real is what you experience. Do you have any pure experience that amps that have .0001 percent distortion sound better than ones that have .001 percent. No, you do not. You have no proof that subjective listening is false.......and you have no proof that objective tests are true. You just have an opinion. You cannot really know anything about audio unless you listen. Since you do not do listening tests then you have no idea if what you say is true. The only people who know anything about how something sounds are those that actually use their ears........this is direct experience. The 85% who listen like their new fuses, power cords, footers, cables off the floor, crystals, directionality of wire, etc. etc......they listen so they have direct experience (or truth). You have numbers on a machine.......that are sometimes useful but really don't tell you much about the sound.

if you keep your head in the sand then all you will know is sand. You have no proof that the numbers game is valid and that the listening game is invalid.....none. You just have a belief that you defend by calling those that have the other opinion names and attacking them and saying they are lying and stealing money from people. How sad. This is not a happy point of view nor a happy way to respond. Fortunately, there is truth. And for those that keep an open mind and heart (and ears)....they will always find a way to the light.

Here is a true story. A friend invited 3 audiophile friends over for a listening session. One of the audiophiles believed that amplifiers sound different but was very adamant that wires all sound the same......he had just met someone new to the audio game and was trying to convince him of hisopinions. Those two and another came over to my friends house where he has a very revealing system including modified Soundlabs Electrostatic speakers. One of the guys wanted to A/B a wire he brought with another wire.......so immediately the non believer goes into the kitchen so he won't even be in the same room as the other 3 guys. All three agreed on the sonic differences between the two wires (including the newby). After the listening tests were done the non believer comes back in the room. They say nothing to him.......what is there to say? If he stays in the room and says he hears no difference then they would think he cannot hear......if he says he hears a difference then he would have been wrong for years......his ego would be shattered......we cannot have that now, can we? I bet to this day, he thinks that all cables sound the same. So, are you willing to come out of the kitchen? Raise you head out of the sand?.......and listen and learn......or are you going to take your opinion to your grave?.......you know, being dead right! None of this really matters in the big scheme of things. We are all bozos on the bus.......but we can learn and share and love and live.

I have nothing more to say about this.....all has been said. I wish you the best.......now back to normal programming.
 

tmtomh

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The only thing that is real is what you experience.

When you start off from a flawed premise, everything that follows is nonsense.

First off, what each of us experiences may indeed be considered to be real - although to say that runs together (at least) two meanings of "real." A person laboring under a delusion is in that moment out of touch with reality. Their experience is still a real experience of course - but crucially, what they feel themselves to be experiencing or what they claimed to experience, is not necessarily real in the objective sense. For example, someone who claims to have experienced a UFO sighting no doubt experienced something, and to that extent their experience was real. But that does not, by itself, give them license to claim with impunity that what they experienced was a UFO sighting. Nor does it give them or anyone else license to claim that it's 50-50 whether or not they saw a UFO - or, in the most fatuous variant that you have embraced here, to say, "well, you can't prove they didn't see a UFO."

Second - and far more egregiously - experience is not the only thing that's real, and you know it, because it's not how you operate. If you did not think there was any objective reality to experience outside of yourself, then you could not rationally market your amp mods because there would be radical uncertainty about whether anyone else ever would hear the differences you claim to hear. You clearly and evidently are convinced that there is an objective, independent reality to the effects your mods make. (And just because not everyone will hear or claim to hear those differences, does not mean you don't believe those differences exist - as evidenced by your own statements.)

And third, all of us, including you, go through our daily lives totally and utterly reliant on the reality of objects, organisms, structures, and phenomena that we do not experience in any direct or personal way. We could hardly exist otherwise.

You have no proof that subjective listening is false.......and you have no proof that objective tests are true. You just have an opinion. ... The only people who know anything about how something sounds are those that actually use their ears........this is direct experience.

If there is no proof that subjective listening is false (putting aside for the moment that this is a misleading, gross caricature of what folks here actually believe), then you cannot claim that "actually using your ears" tells us anything, let alone that it's the only thing. See? All that flows from a nonsensical first principle is more nonsense.

if you keep your head in the sand then all you will know is sand.

Very true - and your perspective depends precisely on that: hyper-subjective, "no measurements" audiophilia is based precisely on the artificial creation of uncertainty and "could be true" by the willful ignorance of a significant fraction of what humanity already knows about audio. No one can take your mods seriously if they don't keep their head in the sand.

I have nothing more to say about this.

Promise?
 

LTig

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The only thing that is real is what you experience. Do you have any pure experience that amps that have .0001 percent distortion sound better than ones that have .001 percent. No, you do not. You have no proof that subjective listening is false.......and you have no proof that objective tests are true. You just have an opinion. You cannot really know anything about audio unless you listen. Since you do not do listening tests then you have no idea if what you say is true. The only people who know anything about how something sounds are those that actually use their ears........this is direct experience. The 85% who listen like their new fuses, power cords, footers, cables off the floor, crystals, directionality of wire, etc. etc......they listen so they have direct experience (or truth).
Let me repeat what I already wrote (BTW: did you read my posting and thought about it?):

These are the people who listen with their ears, eyes and the knowledge about the price and what others had told them in advance - which the brain translates into better sound. It happens to all of us, its how the human brain works. Even knowing this bias does not help to evade it.​

Your accusation that "we" do not listen is totally false. Hey, this is an audio forum! Everyone here has some kind of audio system and uses it to listen to music of all kinds. The difference to other audio fora is that "we" do not ignore the results of some 80 years of scientific research. And when "we" listen to find out if there are any differences we do listen explicitly because we use only our ears - not the eyes, not the knowledge about what kind or brand or price of audio unit we listen to. What's wrong with that?
You have numbers on a machine.......that are sometimes useful but really don't tell you much about the sound.
In electronics the numbers tell it - if THD and noise are below the audible threshold of human hearing (a result of scientific research) such a unit is audibly transparent and cannot change the sound we experience.

For speakers science is not yet so far that simple numbers tell all, but we are getting closer.
if you keep your head in the sand then all you will know is sand. You have no proof that the numbers game is valid and that the listening game is invalid.....none. You just have a belief that you defend by calling those that have the other opinion names and attacking them and saying they are lying and stealing money from people. How sad. This is not a happy point of view nor a happy way to respond. Fortunately, there is truth. And for those that keep an open mind and heart (and ears)....they will always find a way to the light.
The problem is that you keep your head in the sand. Instead of acquiring knowledge about those 80 years of scientific research which tells us a lot you just ignore it because it goes against your personal - and I Have to say flawed - experience. Like those people who say the earth is flat because it looks flat to them. Ignoring scientifc research does not make it disappear. You can fool yourself and others, but let me quote Richard Feynman: you cannot fool nature.
I have nothing more to say about this.....all has been said. I wish you the best.......now back to normal programming.
If you intend to continue your crusade you've chosen the wrong forum.
 

March Audio

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The only people who know anything about how something sounds are those that actually use their ears........this is direct experience. The 85% who listen like their new fuses, power cords, footers, cables off the floor, crystals, directionality of wire, etc. etc......they listen so they have direct experience (or truth). .

That's the whole point, their experience is not necessarily "the truth" . Many factors including cognitive bias and lack of controls means what they have perceived is false.
 
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March Audio

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. You just have a belief that you defend by calling those that have the other opinion names and attacking them and saying they are lying and stealing money from people. How sad. .
Yes it is sad that people get taken in by what you are doing. I get the impression that you genuinely believe in what you are doing, in which case you are not lying or stealing per Se. It is just wilful ignorance on your behalf for whatever reason. However you are still selling products and taking money from people when the products can easily be demonstrated to not do what you claim. We can do this without measurements and just controlled listening tests. So people are being deceived and negatively affected (even if that's only their bank balance) by what you are doing, and you are profiting from it.
 
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CDMC

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CDMC

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March Audio

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! None of this really matters in the big scheme of things. We are all bozos on the bus.......but we can learn and share and love and live.

I have nothing more to say about this.....all has been said. I wish you the best.......now back to normal programming.

Actually it does matter to those who have been duped into buying these products. So all the hippy love BS you keep coming out with is spectacularly disingenuous.
 

cistercian

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Actually it does matter to those who have been duped into buying these products. So all the hippy love BS you keep coming out with is spectacularly disingenuous.

Why is there such a plague of snake oil salesmen? WHY?
It is so ridiculous especially when you consider how good properly made gear is now. And it is not even super expensive
to get premium gear with epic specifications. And yet the charlatans persist. How tedious.
 

Thomas savage

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For those that listen.......not just measure......I perform mods to Purifi based amps. Every mod I do makes the sound better (believe it or not). For the adventurous: The best Voodoo......I do.
No one here is interested in your ' voodoo ' .

Come back with proof of your remarkable claims or please leave us in peace .

There's loads of forums out there for you this is not one of them . Also I removed the links as seems like self promotion to me .

Cheers
 
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