Can we agree headphone amplifiers are solved?

[bobbooo]

No the source is the signal. If want to recreate what the sound engineer heard you'll need that information and to use the same gear in the same situation. Otherwise you are just muddying waters to no benefit to anyone.

You've misunderstood what I said. Specifically in terms of amps, yes the signal that their output should be faithful to in everything but total level is the input source signal (and as I've said, this should be fidelity to a music input signal, as transparent fidelity to sine tone input does not necessarily guarantee the same for music signals.)

My second point in brackets in my original comment was that specifically for transducers used for audio reproduction, they cannot be said to be faithful to anything but an acoustic 'signal', as they are analogue audio to acoustic converters. So this acoustic output signal of the transducer should ideally be faithful to the acoustic output that the sound engineer heard when listening to the final master of the music, in order to preserve the intent of the artist.

 

[MSTARK]

If we would wipe out the brains of the audiophile community and make them forget the association between tube sound and (for a lack of a better term) the "good old times", I highly doubt that many people would choose to embrace such fundamentally flawed products.

Characteristics of tube amplifier is not imagination. Just ask and guitar player. Lol

 

[sergeauckland]

You've misunderstood what I said. Specifically in terms of amps, yes the signal that their output should be faithful to in everything but total level is the input source signal (and as I've said, this should be fidelity to a music input signal, as transparent fidelity to sine tone input does not necessarily guarantee the same for music signals.)

Yes it does. If the distortion on a sine wave is very low, and that remains low at low, medium and high frequencies, then it MUST remain low for music signals, and music signals are just simultaneous sine waves of different frequencies, as any FFT will show.

If you don't see how that could be, look up the Superposition principle, which will explain why. If a system is linear, and we established that by measuring distortion at several frequencies individually presented, then is MUST remain linear if all the frequencies are presented together.

S.

 

[sergeauckland]

Headphones are really the only practical way forward on this. Soundwave synthesis is just too expensive and cumbersome to ever be a successful consumer product.

Headphones using DSP with a personalized in ear impulse response and head tracking can simulate the same thing with greater fidelity and lower cost. Then cross it over to some subs for the bass impact and you've probably got the best simulated soundfield there is until we get to Matrix levels of virtual reality.

I understand this, but I find headphones unpleasant to wear, especially in hot weather. I also question just how accurately the ear impulse response can be measured, given that even a small positional difference of the transducer gives considerable difference in measurement, so even if the ear response could be measured accurately, every time I put the headphones on, it would need a different response as the headphones would be in a slightly different position.

S.

 

[Fluffy]

Characteristics of tube amplifier is not imagination. Just ask and guitar player. Lol

I've already said it's not imagination. High enough distortion is audible.

In guitar amplifiers distortion serves a completely different role. It's just another type of effect, made to give the sound some expressive characteristic. As an avid metal head, I of course have no issues with guitarists slapping on all the distortion and effects their heart desire, to achieve a nice tone.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

You've misunderstood what I said. Specifically in terms of amps, yes the signal that their output should be faithful to in everything but total level is the input source signal (and as I've said, this should be fidelity to a music input signal, as transparent fidelity to sine tone input does not necessarily guarantee the same for music signals.)

 

[solderdude]

Characteristics of tube amplifier is not imagination. Just ask and guitar player. Lol

There is a HUGE difference between a guitar amplifier, its use case (only one instrument not the entire band) and the overdrive type of distortion adjustments that are intended to color the sound in a specific way. Guitar amps are never build to amplify the pickup of a guitar 'faithfully'.
Nor is this done in studios when the guitar is plugged in the connection box directly.

When one has ever connected a CD player to any guitar amp they will know this has nothing to do with hifi.

edit: crossposting with Fluffy

 

[MSTARK]

There is a HUGE difference between a guitar amplifier, its use case (only one instrument not the entire band) and the overdrive type of distortion adjustments that are intended to color the sound in a specific way. Guitar amps are never build to amplify the pickup of a guitar 'faithfully'.
Nor is this done in studios when the guitar is plugged in the connection box directly.

When one has ever connected a CD player to any guitar amp they will know this has nothing to do with hifi.

edit: crossposting with Fluffy

That wasn’t my point. Point was, tubes=color. And that “color” is easily distinguishable.

 

[bobbooo]

Yes it does. If the distortion on a sine wave is very low, and that remains low at low, medium and high frequencies, then it MUST remain low for music signals, and music signals are just simultaneous sine waves of different frequencies, as any FFT will show.

If you don't see how that could be, look up the Superposition principle, which will explain why. If a system is linear, and we established that by measuring distortion at several frequencies individually presented, then is MUST remain linear if all the frequencies are presented together.

S.

The point is they may not be linear systems. An amp exhibiting high IMD yet low single sine tone distortion at different frequencies is an example. There may be other nonlinearities that only reveal themselves with the highly complex waveforms of a music signal, as opposed to the simple test tones commonly used.

 

[Vini darko]

That wasn’t my point. Point was, tubes=color. And that “color” is easily distinguishable.

Tubes are totally purple

 

[MSTARK]

I've already said it's not imagination. High enough distortion is audible.

In guitar amplifiers distortion serves a completely different role. It's just another type of effect, made to give the sound some expressive characteristic. As an avid metal head, I of course have no issues with guitarists slapping on all the distortion and effects their heart desire, to achieve a nice tone.

Tube gear aficionados do exactly the same thing. It’s not about accuracy but what sounds “right” to their ears. Not saying that “accuracy” is overrated but there’s some “romantic”, nostalgic side to sound of tubes that is difficult to explain.

 

[Fluffy]

That wasn’t my point. Point was, tubes=color. And that “color” is easily distinguishable.

Pretty sure no one here said otherwise. Though how easily one can distinguish color depends on how subtle is the coloring.

Tube gear aficionados do exactly the same thing. It’s not about accuracy but what sounds “right” to their ears. Not saying that “accuracy” is overrated but there’s some “romantic”, nostalgic side to sound of tubes that is difficult to explain.

I tried to explain it in post no. 72

 

[maverickronin]

I understand this, but I find headphones unpleasant to wear, especially in hot weather. I also question just how accurately the ear impulse response can be measured, given that even a small positional difference of the transducer gives considerable difference in measurement, so even if the ear response could be measured accurately, every time I put the headphones on, it would need a different response as the headphones would be in a slightly different position.

Can't really do anything about the comfort, but there are plenty of headphones that stay consistent in varying positions.

 

[solderdude]

That wasn’t my point. Point was, tubes=color. And that “color” is easily distinguishable.

Tubes is not color. Tubes in specific circuits can add 'color'. Any well designed tube amplifier with enough gain and feedback will be indistinguishable from a decent SS amp. There will be no 'color' in either design.

The trick is in the usage of the amplifying devices.

 

[MSTARK]

Pretty sure no one here said otherwise. Though how easily one can distinguish color depends on how shuttle is the coloring.


I tried to explain it in post no. 72

True. Also, how well your ears are trained to distinguish those differences. Circuitry design can also diminish or emphasize tube characteristics but a hint of tube DNA will always be there.

 

[MSTARK]

Tubes is not color. Tubes in specific circuits can add 'color'. Any well designed tube amplifier with enough gain and feedback will be indistinguishable from a decent SS amp. There will be no 'color' in either design.

The trick is in the usage of the amplifying devices.

It’s called voicing.

 

[sergeauckland]

The point is they may not be linear systems. An amp exhibiting high IMD yet low single sine tone distortion at different frequencies is an example. There may be other nonlinearities that only reveal themselves with the highly complex waveforms of real music, as opposed to the simple test tones commonly used.

It's not possible for an amplifier to have high IMD yet low THD, as it's the same mechanism that creates both, non linearity of transfer function. Ditto with other non-linearities, they show up on a single sine wave, or if they don't, then there aren't any.

S

 

[solderdude]

The point is they may not be linear systems. An amp exhibiting high IMD yet low single sine tone distortion at different frequencies is an example.

When a system is linear there also is no IMD.
The Linearity Serge is talking about is not the frequency response but the transfer function
I suspect you assumed Serge talked about linear frequency response and it is easy to design an amp with linear frequency response but high harmonic and IMD.

Edit.. damn again crossposting.

 

[Fluffy]

It’s called voicing.

I'll just quote myself here:

This argument is based on the archaic ideal that electronics should play a part in how things "sound". it's a remnant from times where it wasn't yet possible engineering an amplifier or converter without substantial signal degradation. So the marketing spin was that this degradation is "euphonic" or "warm" or "desirable", and compromising on one form of degradation over another was called "voicing".

But if we put aside that confused part of history, the simple fact is that the job of an amplifier is simply to amplify voltage, nothing more. If it does its job correctly and without signal degradation, it doesn't and shouldn't have any contribution to the sound. Ideally, the only part of the system that should affect the resulting sound (acoustic waves in the air) is the part that actually produces sound waves, and that is the transducer.

Dacs and headphone amps are basically at a point that they contribute so little degradation to the signal that they can be considered perfectly transparent conduits of signal, just like cables (relative to the perceptual limits of the human brain).

 

[MSTARK]

Tubes is not color. Tubes in specific circuits can add 'color'. Any well designed tube amplifier with enough gain and feedback will be indistinguishable from a decent SS amp. There will be no 'color' in either design.

The trick is in the usage of the amplifying devices.

P.S have you ever rolled tubes?