Horns - Necessary to complete the Audiophile Journey?

[Duke]

Acoustical Horns And Waveguides presentation by Jean-Michel Le Cléac’h
http://unepassionaudiophile.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/CONFERENCE-PAVILLONS-1.pdf (sorry, wrong link now corrected)

Imo this article is excellent. In particular from page 63, "Straight Horns", to the end. Thank you for posting this, tuga.

LeCleac'h and Geddes have different goals and imo the relative merits of their designs are pretty well described, along with the "minimum phase" hybrid which attempts to combine attributes of both. JBL's M2 waveguide is not mentioned but would fall towards the Geddes end of the spectrum, in function though not in form.

Being a believer in a spectrally-correct reverberant field (primarily as a result of time with SoundLab fullrange electrostats), I'm also in the constant-directivity camp.

 

[Absolute]

Imo this article is excellent. In particular from page 63, "Straight Horns", to the end. Thank you for posting this, tuga.

LeCleac'h and Geddes have different goals and imo the relative merits of their designs are pretty well described, along with the "minimum phase" hybrid which attempts to combine attributes of both. JBL's M2 waveguide is not mentioned but would fall towards the Geddes end of the spectrum, in function though not in form.

Being a believer in a spectrally-correct reverberant field (primarily as a result of time with SoundLab fullrange electrostats), I'm also in the constant-directivity camp.

Would it be accurate to assume that the M2 waveguide "pinches" the waveform in the horizontal and vertical plane? It looks like two sets of fingers is pinching the mouth.

I remember reading somewhere that Charles Sprinkle no longer believes in constant directivity as the best solution and that he now thinks smooth but steadily rising directivity is preferable. I asked directly and he said it had a lot to do with needing a high-shelf filter from around 2khz with the JBL M2 in normal/small rooms to sound natural that led him onto that path.
Thinking about it I feel it makes sense if you assume most music is produced with normal speakers without constant directivity and that we're used to non-constant directivity in all rooms from all kinds of sound coming from other stuff than speakers.
What are your thoughts on this?

I have JBL M2's now and had Kii Three previously, both more or less constant directivity designs. Can't say I feel they suffer from it. Is this perhaps one of the more academic discussions where the issue is solved by somewhat different tuning?

 

[tuga]

Would it be accurate to assume that the M2 waveguide "pinches" the waveform in the horizontal and vertical plane? It looks like two sets of fingers is pinching the mouth.

I wonder if there's a chance of an overly-sculpted waveguide profile producing audible distortion.
I asked about this here after seing this plot in the R-41M review:

 

[Absolute]

Great question, tuga. I've learned to not assume too much because physics have a tendency to make you look stoopid, but I've been wondering the exact same thing. It led me to a 700+ page on DIYAudio.com that literally exhausted my head for days.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Horns have definitely been at the End of my Audio Journey. No speaker that I have heard has the dynamics, Speed and Transparency of a Horn. I have owned Klipsch Belles, Klipschorns, and then Modified Khorns with Altec 1005B Horns for the Mid-range and finally I have Khorn Bass Bins, with the Oris Orphean Horns for the Midrange with Compression Drivers that have Concentric Tweeters. They are Bi-amped with 1.8 watt 45 SET Monoblocks on the Horns and 500 watt per channel Hypex Class 'D' amps for the Bass Bins. I have owned the Oris System for 6 years and don't plan on any new speakers for my lifetime. Here is a picture of my Music Room.

 

[mhardy6647]

Speaking of LeCleac'h -- some of y'all may find this interesting/enjoyable.

http://www.rintelen.ch/download/JMMLC_horns_lecture_etf10.pdf

it's not just etymology/entymology , either

THey do sound nice IME (and FWIW, realizing full well that my subjective opinion counts for naught here ).

 

[patate91]

There seems to be a hobbyist community around using TAD drivers with wooden bi-radial horns:

They sure look amazing.


But are there any technical merits / de-merits to these kind of horns versus other shapes?

Speaking of which....

Is there a primer somewhere on horn geometry?

I have those and I love them.

@Joseph Crowe did a version and certainly measured it.

 

[watchnerd]

I dived into horns with something similar but with 12" woofer and cheaper chinese drivers, bough ex-demo from the distributor at 40% off.
Started with this 2-way:

Then converted it into this 3-way adding a Visaton horn tweeter and replacing the original horn with a tractrix.
(the overly-tall horn stand is a temporary prototype, made of Ikea leftover plywood drawers)

Then got fed up with the permanent work-in-progress tweaking and as it needed a new woofer and was getting too expensive I sold them.

They look so cool.

It sounds like you weren't pleased with the sound, though?

 

[watchnerd]

I have those and I love them.

@Joseph Crowe did a version and certainly measured it.

How are you using them?

What do you like about them?

 

[patate91]

How are you using them?

What do you like about them?

I first bought the 800hz TAD crossover, but I recently switched to active with a MiniDSP 2x4 HD. Since they are really sensitive there's annoying hiss. I'll switch to SHD once my budget allows it.

There's no horn sounds, sounds and have better measurements off-axis.

I'm still toying with the crossover, I find 800hz a little bit high. TAD TD-4002 can go as low as 600hz. I still need times for more critical listening time (I'm no expert).

Out of the box they sounds bight, frequency response is straight.

 

[tuga]

They look so cool.

It sounds like you weren't pleased with the sound, though?

The Consonance M12 2-way as sold definitely not.
My mods made improvements but the low frequency extension was too limited. I considered replacing the woofer but ultimately gave up. Playing with these things requires deep pockets and lots of spare time.

 

[richard12511]

I didn't say it either, though PA speakers I've hear have not sounded particular adequate for domestic playback (even though some were really good when playing at "live" levels).

Dang, I guess I got both references wrong. I've ordered them, and they should be here in couple days. Probably gonna compare them against the JBL 308p and Infinity Reference 263, both of which are similarly priced, but have nowhere near the output. I could also compare them against my JTRs, which can match(or exceed) the output, but they're many times more expensive.

 

[richard12511]

I dived into horns with something similar but with 12" woofer and cheaper chinese drivers, bough ex-demo from the distributor at 40% off.
Started with this 2-way:

Then converted it into this 3-way adding a Visaton horn tweeter and replacing the original horn with a tractrix.
(the overly-tall horn stand is a temporary prototype, made of Ikea leftover plywood drawers)

Then got fed up with the permanent work-in-progress tweaking and as it needed a new woofer and was getting too expensive I sold them.

So you design your own horns?

 

[richard12511]

Would it be accurate to assume that the M2 waveguide "pinches" the waveform in the horizontal and vertical plane? It looks like two sets of fingers is pinching the mouth.

I remember reading somewhere that Charles Sprinkle no longer believes in constant directivity as the best solution and that he now thinks smooth but steadily rising directivity is preferable. I asked directly and he said it had a lot to do with needing a high-shelf filter from around 2khz with the JBL M2 in normal/small rooms to sound natural that led him onto that path.
Thinking about it I feel it makes sense if you assume most music is produced with normal speakers without constant directivity and that we're used to non-constant directivity in all rooms from all kinds of sound coming from other stuff than speakers.
What are your thoughts on this?

I have JBL M2's now and had Kii Three previously, both more or less constant directivity designs. Can't say I feel they suffer from it. Is this perhaps one of the more academic discussions where the issue is solved by somewhat different tuning?

How would you compare the Kii Threes to the JBL M2s?

 

[Sal1950]

No doubt.
Bison fat might be my favorite mammal fat.
No, wait....feral pig is better.

Love Bison, almost impossible to find here in FL
Lots of feral pig here though, never tried any to tell the truth.
Wish I didn't have all the back issues I do, I'd love to go handgun hunting for them.

 

[tuga]

So you design your own horns?

No, I bought a commercial speaker then made some experiments/improvements.
I may have another go when I retire if I can afford it.

 

[Sal1950]

Then got fed up with the permanent work-in-progress tweaking and as it needed a new woofer and was getting too expensive I sold them.

What did you replace them with?
Nothing I love more than the look of beautiful wood. As I've mentioned before, I'm extremely jealous of those that produce these works of art in wood. I've never been able to perfect the art of wood craftsmanship, every time I try it always ended up looking hacked. Even the simple stain job I did on my raw La Scala's came out looking like crap to me.

I have JBL M2's now and had Kii Three previously, both more or less constant directivity designs.

Good choice!

 

[tuga]

What did you replace them with?
Nothing I love more than the look of beautiful wood. As I've mentioned before, I'm extremely jealous of those that produce these works of art in wood. I've never been able to perfect the art of wood craftsmanship, every time I try it always ended up looking hacked. Even the simple stain job I did on my raw La Scala's came out looking like crap to me.

Big Spendors, which I was forced to sell a few years later due to a move abroad.

 

[Absolute]

How would you compare the Kii Threes to the JBL M2s?

I think the difference is mostly in scale, actually. The M2's sounds bigger in scale in the whole sofa/room, presumably due to broader dispersion but could be something else. That feeling of scale and realism follows you when the spl goes up where the M2 just sounds bigger and louder while Kii somewhere along the line goes over to sound a little forced. You can hear the lack of capacity as distortion/ringing/metallic sound while the M2 stays completely relaxed at all times.

Tonally you can get them to sound very similar, as expected, but Kii have some advantages with the cardioide that makes the area between 100-300 hz less problematic when it comes to SBIR.

All in all the Kii in many ways is a scaled-down version with benefits of ease of use, placement and easy to achieve good sound from - if a little bit bright with the standard settings. But size matters in the world of speakers.

Sorry for my lack of flowery language.

 

[tuga]

Sorry for my lack of flowery language.

Thank you for your lack of flowery language.