Multi-channel Listening and Understanding Some Basic Concepts

[Dimifoot]

Do yo listen to much stereo content on your multichannel system and do you upmix?

Yes, I upmix stereo and mono to Auro3d/Auro-matic

 

[Trdat]

Yes, I upmix stereo and mono to Auro3d/Auro-matic

Your using the high end upmixers. I am presuming with a AVR...

Either way, I understand your point of view about multichannel but I need to take in consideration that your opinion is based on some descent up-mixing.

Thanks for your viewpoint...

 

[Dimifoot]

Either way, I understand your point of view about multichannel but I need to take in consideration that your opinion is based on some descent up-mixing.

True.
I wasn’t a fun of upmixing with previous generation AV equipment-upmixers.

 

[Trdat]

True.
I wasn’t a fun of upmixing with previous generation AV equipment-upmixers.

So essentially, although your a fan of multichannel your only reaping the benefits(of multichannel) from modern up mixing decoding. I am trying to get to the bottom of what people think of multichannel if they don't have proper up-mixing.

I ask this as it seems that I might go with the multichannel route and be stuck with Jriver JRSS upmixing which is often compared closer to the old basic Dolby pro logics.

 

[Sancus]

I mean if you don't do upmixing, the value of multi-channel is pretty straightforward: How much multi-channel music is available for your preferred genres and are you going to acquire it? My system is used for home theatre, dedicated multi-channel, and upmixing(Auro3D isn't that expensive to get, it's available in the Denon 4500H), so the value I get from it is high.

But I only have like 50 albums worth of multi-channel music(all on a file server). It's all great stuff, but I don't think it'd be enough to build a multi-channel system *specifically for*. On the other hand, if you're planning to collect the thousands of classical multi-channel albums out there, then I think it's definitely worth it.

 

[vavan]

I am trying to get to the bottom of what people think of multichannel if they don't have proper up-mixing

when I only had Pioneer AVR SC-2022 and inferior main speakers (heco victa prime 702) I couldn't listen to stereo as it sounded mediocre and ext.stereo (using additional center and surrounds) was so much better. now that I have decent f208s with great spaciousness and mostly stick with plain stereo I still like to utilize DSU/NeuralX in pio 901 from time to time

 

[Dimifoot]

But I only have like 50 albums worth of multi-channel music(all on a file server).

I have more than a thousand now.

 

[Trdat]

I have some true 5.1 albums about 100 of them , but just like most of us the vast majority of my records are stereo.

So you upmix most of your stereo content? And how do you find live stereo recordings when upmixed?

 

[Trdat]

I read Siegfried Linkwitzes post on surround and it seems he is not a fan of the centre speaker and proposes an interesting set up. I also skimmed through David Griesinger's "The Science of Surround" who says 5.1 significantly improves 2 channel with upmixing.

1. Linkwitz proposes for your two channel set up to remain the same, untouched and an adding the surround rears with an AVR View attachment 65126

How the hell do I add a external DAC/Preamp to an AVR I must need a digital out. Anyway, just curious if someone can let me know how this is done? Or is there another way of doing this? I will be connecting a USB from the computer or an optical from the TV into an AVR...

2. David Griesinger mentions in his conclusion "A five channel system is nearly always better than two channel, if the side speakers are independent" What does he mean by independent?

3. I can't remember where I read this but it seems the rear speakers need to go down to a certain low end frequency to create enough of the LF reverb from the back. So till what frequency is recommended or can the rear speakers really be that small? I'm presuming that bigger is still better even if they are only playing ambience. Any opinions on this?

This will help me in understanding concepts surrounding multichannel.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I read Siegfried Linkwitzes post on surround and it seems he is not a fan of the centre speaker and proposes an interesting set up. I also skimmed through David Griesinger's "The Science of Surround" who says 5.1 significantly improves 2 channel with upmixing.

1. Linkwitz proposes for your two channel set up to remain the same, untouched and an adding the surround rears with an AVR View attachment 65126

How the hell do I add a external DAC/Preamp to an AVR I must need a digital out. Anyway, just curious if someone can let me know how this is done? Or is there another way of doing this? I will be connecting a USB from the computer or an optical from the TV into an AVR...

2. David Griesinger mentions in his conclusion "A five channel system is nearly always better than two channel, if the side speakers are independent" What does he mean by independent?

3. I can't remember where I read this but it seems the rear speakers need to go down to a certain low end frequency to create enough of the LF reverb from the back. So till what frequency is recommended or can the rear speakers really be that small? I'm presuming that bigger is still better even if they are only playing ambience. Any opinions on this?

This will help me in understanding concepts surrounding multichannel.

Initially, the early 5.1 systems were 4.1 systems were the side/rear channels were fed with a band passed filtered monaural signal. The amp then added some stereophonic noise, a rear dipole created another illusion. I guess that is what David refers to as the need for the side channels to be independent - which they are today. I can not think of room reverb being lower than 100 Hz, but am no expert there.

 

[Trdat]

Initially, the early 5.1 systems were 4.1 systems were the side/rear channels were fed with a band passed filtered monaural signal. The amp then added some stereophonic noise, a rear dipole created another illusion. I guess that is what David refers to as the need for the side channels to be independent - which they are today. I can not think of room reverb being lower than 100 Hz, but am no expert there.

Ah okay, thanks. Just wanted to clarify that, don't know much about the old encoding.

And my rears will potentially play down past 100hz so it should be fine.

 

[flyingflatfour]

Good evening,

I am in the process of figuring out a dual purpose multichannel system for both HT and music, built around ATC speakers and BK sealed subwoofer in a 7.1 arrangement.

For the moment I am thinking of feeding music from a Roon Core server to an Oppo-203 BD player paired over HDMI to either my current Yamaha DSP-Z7 or a Denon X3600H AVR. L+R speakers are actives, C would be externally amplified by a NC400 module, leaving the internal amps for the 4 bookshelf passives. In the future I might consider adding 4 heights.

Multichannel music seems mostly available in DSD format. Both Oppo and Denon support multichannel DSD up to DSD128 over HDMI it seems.

HOWEVER, since I intend to use bass management and EQ on the receiver, I guess that in any case the DSD signal will have to be converted to PCM, be it by the Oppo, the receiver in case it’s the Denon or by the file server software??

If true, how much of a potential quality loss are we talking about? In this context, is there any interest in purchasing DSD128 over DSD64? Would the Denon’s 32/384 DACs have an advantage over the Yamaha’s 24/192s?

What better quality yet cost-effective alternatives exist for such a dual-purpose system?

Thank you

 

[Kal Rubinson]

HOWEVER, since I intend to use bass management and EQ on the receiver, I guess that in any case the DSD signal will have to be converted to PCM, be it by the Oppo, the receiver in case it’s the Denon or by the file server software??

Do the PCM conversion, BM and EQ in Roon. Better tools than in the AVR. Leave the rest as-is.

If true, how much of a potential quality loss are we talking about? In this context, is there any interest in purchasing DSD128 over DSD64? Would the Denon’s 32/384 DACs have an advantage over the Yamaha’s 24/192s?

1. Not much.
2. Nope.
3. Nope.

 

[Dimifoot]

I am afraid that the Oppo won’t stream multichannel in Roon.

 

[flyingflatfour]

Do the PCM conversion, BM and EQ in Roon. Better tools than in the AVR. Leave the rest as-is.

Hi Kal, thanks for the answer.

I don’t understand how EQ and BM can be done by the software before the AVR? I mean, the software works with channels whereas the AVR works with speakers...

 

[flyingflatfour]

I am afraid that the Oppo won’t stream multichannel in Roon.

I read an article on NativeDSD explaining that it works from the Oppo interface and with JRiver, so I was assuming Roon could do it too... any idea why it wouldn’t work ?

 

[Dimifoot]

I have no idea. I have tried it, and the output is two channels.

 

[flyingflatfour]

Dammit...

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I am afraid that the Oppo won’t stream multichannel in Roon.

It will by HDMI.

I don’t understand how EQ and BM can be done by the software before the AVR? I mean, the software works with channels whereas the AVR works with speakers...

There is a one-to-one correlation of the two (at least to begin with).

I read an article on NativeDSD explaining that it works from the Oppo interface and with JRiver, so I was assuming Roon could do it too... any idea why it wouldn’t work ?

It works with both. I prefer JRiver.

I have no idea. I have tried it, and the output is two channels.

Only if you use USB.

 

[Dimifoot]

Only if you use USB.

MacBook running Roon -Ethernet-Oppo203 as Roon Ready device-connected by HDMI-to Trinnov

When streaming multichannel I get 2 channels out from the Oppo.


If Trinnov is used as a Roon Ready device, then there is no problem with multichannel