Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

[Racheski]

The measurements speak for themselves so I don’t get it, we are at -120dB SINAD, well beyond inaudibility. Jitter is well managed in USB and SPDIF, clock seems to be tight, no temperature dependence. What would “optimization” even look like?

I guess Head-Fi is mostly folks talking out their rears - I'm struggling to find reasons to visit there outside of product announcements and messaging with manufacturers.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

Some dude on Head Fi claimed the D90 is “...a basic (not optimized) implementation of the 4499 chip to reach a certain price point.” This is as ridiculous as it sounds, right?

Likely as not, said dude owns a ridiculously overpriced underperforming DAC, and he came across the ASR review of the D90, and now he is mouthing off loudly on head-fi to try and dispel the cold clammy fear that grips his heart and whispers to him that maybe just maybe he made a terrible mistake purchasing a POS that was "optimized" to reach a much higher price point.

 

[DavidBloch406]

Likely as not, said dude owns a ridiculously overpriced underperforming DAC, and he came across the ASR review of the D90, and now he is mouthing off loudly on head-fi to try and dispel the cold clammy fear that grips his heart and whispers to him that maybe just maybe he made a terrible mistake purchasing a POS that was "optimized" to reach a much higher price point.

You do realise, don’t you, that many, many audiophiles think that ASR is populated by cult members who spend all their time fetishising numbers and never, ever listen to music?
I mean, not me obviously... but you may be over-egging the ‘cold clammy fear’, old chap

 

[Veri]

You do realise, don’t you, that many, many audiophiles think that ASR is populated by cult members who spend all their time fetishising numbers

At least we look at numbers and things that were determined in a repeatable fashion, rather than made-up audiophile lingo impressions and eternal circle jerking over what is the FOTM amp dac or whatever else, not even mentioning USB tweaks and silver cables somehow boosting treble...
Just an example, read page 88-89 of this: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-amp-from-headamp-gs-x-mini.883745/page-88
I think I saw the meaning of "warm" and "neutral" change at least a few times in the span of a couple of pages very intelligent discussion...

 

[Pluto]

you may be over-egging the ‘cold clammy fear’

While that may be true, have you ever been in the position of having stumped-up, say, $6k for a product only to learn that something very similar is obtainable for just 10% of the amount you have spent?

I reckon that's a particularly awful place to be psychologically, unless you are of sufficient wealth that it truly doesn't matter. The kick-back from such poor souls is likely to be vicious, at the very least.

 

[Martin]

I listen to music daily, sometimes for hours on end, on my stereo, in my office or using my headphone setup. We at ASR "fetishize numbers" so we can listen to music and not artifacts of poorly designed equipment. Members on the subjective sites listen to components, wires, resistors and capacitors if you believe what they say and are missing the reason we buy these systems - the beauty of clear, uncolored music. Heck, I was on a site yesterday that specifically forbids discussion of double blind testing - I could not believe it when I read it - banning the only reliable method of determining the audible difference between components. I choose the light...

Martin

edit: I fixed the spelling of sites

 

[DavidBloch406]

I listen to music daily, sometimes for hours on end, on my stereo, in my office or using my headphone setup. We at ASR "fetishize numbers" so we can listen to music and not artifacts of poorly designed equipment. Members on the subjective sights listen to components, wires, resistors and capacitors if you believe what they say and are missing the reason we buy these systems - the beauty of clear, uncolored music. Heck, I was on a site yesterday that specifically forbids discussion of double blind testing - I could not believe it when I read it - banning the only reliable method of determining the audible difference between components. I choose the light...

Martin

Guys, GUYS: we do protest too much. We ARE right; but we DO talk about numbers to the exclusion of much else; so we are not nearly as important as we think we are... and I don’t believe the audiophile world is as horrid as one or two of us make out. But remember: I was responding to one of US trashing Head-Fi, not vice-versa....
Now, back to my E30 and Atom amp... which I adore...

 

[DavidBloch406]

At least we look at numbers and things that were determined in a repeatable fashion, rather than made-up audiophile lingo impressions and eternal circle jerking over what is the FOTM amp dac or whatever else, not even mentioning USB tweaks and silver cables somehow boosting treble...
Just an example, read page 88-89 of this: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-amp-from-headamp-gs-x-mini.883745/page-88
I think I saw the meaning of "warm" and "neutral" change at least a few times in the span of a couple of pages very intelligent discussion...

I hold no brief for Head-Fi... though I enjoy reading “Stereophile”. In the end we are subjects, however objective we seek to be...

 

[Racheski]

You do realise, don’t you, that many, many audiophiles think that ASR is populated by cult members who spend all their time fetishising numbers and never, ever listen to music?
I mean, not me obviously... but you may be over-egging the ‘cold clammy fear’, old chap

I wouldn't be that surprised if Topping is some sort of cult; but I'm cool with that. If it is, can I join?

 

[DavidBloch406]

I wouldn't be that surprised if Topping is some sort of cult; but I'm cool with that. If it is, can I join?

Oh you’re in

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

You do realise, don’t you, that many, many audiophiles think that ASR is populated by cult members who spend all their time fetishising numbers and never, ever listen to music?
I mean, not me obviously... but you may be over-egging the ‘cold clammy fear’, old chap

Are you saying this is not a cult??? So you’re telling me I sacrificed a chicken this morning for nothing?

Very upsetting, she was my favorite chicken too.

 

[BDWoody]

We at ASR "fetishize numbers" so we can listen to music and not artifacts of poorly designed equipment.

Amen

 

[dixter]

Are you saying this is not a cult??? So you’re telling me I sacrificed a chicken this morning for nothing?

Very upsetting, she was my favorite chicken too.

you will need to BBQ her and use her as the " Topping " of a pizza... while listening to Abby Road in MQA.... couldn't resist...

 

[dixter]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-modius-discussion-199-balanced-ak4493-dac.933895/page-12

Looks like they were just talking chit...

 

[DavidBloch406]

Are you saying this is not a cult??? So you’re telling me I sacrificed a chicken this morning for nothing?

Very upsetting, she was my favorite chicken too.

Was she an AK chicken or one of those Sabres? I hate those guys, they taste kind of sharp and metallic. The AKs are much smoother and more chickeny... don’t ask me how I know I just do

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

You do realise, don’t you, that many, many audiophiles think that ASR is populated by cult members who spend all their time fetishising numbers and never, ever listen to music?
I mean, not me obviously... but you may be over-egging the ‘cold clammy fear’, old chap

I do realize that. I have read through many ASR forum threads embodying the subjectivist vs. objectivist war, and there are wilder flame wars in the world wide wilderness. For various reasons, I do not wish to take up arms and engage perpetually in that war. My attitude is live and let live, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, etc., etc. Also, as you do in your post #1650, I hold that each of us is a subject first, constrained by what our senses tell us and the information that we have access to.

My reason for post #1644 was not to sound the trumpets for another battle in that war. I do not know where the head-fi poster is coming from, and I do not plan to research the matter, having other priorities in life. However, part of his post was repeated here on ASR as hearsay by member Racheski who also in effect asked whether what the head-fi dude said might be true that the use of the AK4499EQ might be better optimized by not cutting costs and that by implication the D90 might be an inferior implementation because costs were cut. Since it was presented here as a dismissive judgement of the D90 without presenting the dude's basis, I felt some push-back at the credibility of the baseless version presented here on ASR was in order, and so I took a guess (based on what I know of the audiophile culture at head-fi, which I realize is a generalization, but no I was not trying to trash head-fi) at the dude's motivation and reasoning. I did preface my remark with the qualifier "Likely as not". The dude was surely not implying that a pricier implementation could pull significantly better measurements from the AK4499. Not a whole lot of room for that.

As you say, many subjectivist audiophiles are opining that objectivist audiophiles are mistaken in trusting measurements over listening. It is unclear, though how many of them believe what they say without any doubts versus how many of them are reflexively dismissing the counter-evidence and defending their egos from the feeling that they have been making expensive mistakes. Same opinions, different internal beliefs. It is unknown why they are so vocal about it, verily they do protest too much, and so I may or may not be over-egging the cold and clammy fear that whispers to the dude (which of course was a caricature to make the point about his motivation). The fairy tale does not tell us whether the emperor ever admitted his own foolishness and had the tailor beheaded to soothe his own ego, or whether he thanked his tailor for teaching him a bitter but valuable lesson, or whether he kept ordering new clothes from the same royal tailor throughout his reign. If the latter, did he ever feel that fear and shame and rage? Did these lead him to mock the finery of his courtiers?

So yes, I do realize that many subjectivists opine that objectivists fetishize measurements to the exclusion of musicality. But I do not pay much attention to that, having spent nineteen twentieths of my life without really reading the specs of audio gear, and continuing to enjoy some poorly recorded music that no amount of the finest audio gear will make sound as good as if it had been recorded with better technology.

 

[Pluto]

objectivists fetishize measurements to the exclusion of musicality

Despite having spent most of my working life surrounded by audio equipment, I still do not understand exactly what the term “musicality” is supposed to mean.

I've always taken it to be a cop out to excuse kit that performs poorly but “I like it anyway”.

 

[holicst]

Most DACs' outputs are too noisy to connect sensitive IEMs directly.

May I ask which Topping DACs have a suitable output (via RCA to 3.5mm jack) to a Shure KSE1200?

 

[DavidBloch406]

Despite having spent most of my working life surrounded by audio equipment, I still do not understand exactly what the term “musicality” is supposed to mean.

I've always taken it to be a cop out to excuse kit that performs poorly but “I like it anyway”.

You’ve always taken it the wrong way, then. Schnabel played plenty of bum notes. He was also the most musical of interpreters of Beethoven’s sonatas. Musicality is what happens in-between the notes

 

[ReaderZ]

You’ve always taken it the wrong way, then. Schnabel played plenty of bum notes. He was also the most musical of interpreters of Beethoven’s sonatas. Musicality is what happens in-between the notes

It's musician's job to create musicality, not DAC's. DAC's job is to honestly recreate what's already there.