Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

[mocenigo]

So basically you just think that it's cool.

Completely misunderstood. It is cool, yes, but the point is that in theory you can make a ridiculously small and simple DAC, and a rather cheap one at that, and push all the effort into the final conversion to DSD, done in a computer with a lot of cycles at disposal and ease of modulator upgrade, since it would be just SW.

You're going to have to turn it back into PCM at some point for DSP...

No, no, again you misunderstood. You store stuff in PCM. Process in PCM. Do all your DSP in PCM. You convert to DSD only at the very end, to perform the conversion.

There is the matter of DSD native recordings. I have no problems in having them converted and even distributed as PCM. But even a native DSD recording can just be considered as a rough PCM recording with two extreme values, which then can be filtered to, say, 90Khz, then PCM processed (including volume control) and converted back. This can be done with no loss.

 

[PorchSong]

Wait. . . this the Topping D90 thread, right?!?

 

[maverickronin]

Completely misunderstood. It is cool, yes, but the point is that in theory you can make a ridiculously small and simple DAC, and a rather cheap one at that, and push all the effort into the final conversion to DSD, done in a computer with a lot of cycles at disposal and ease of modulator upgrade, since it would be just SW.

But what is the point of any of that? Cheap high quality PCM DACs are already a solved problem and PCM DACs aren't going anywhere. Absolute best case scenario is that you gain several dB of SINAD in DSD mode.

By relying on external conversion you're increasing overall complexity anyway. It would be a good idea if we needed to make DACs from scratch sometime in the post apocalypse and we had stores of 10nm CPUs but no more PCM DAC chips.

That's why "It's cool" is really the best argument DSD has going for it. And there's nothing wrong with that. Have fun.

No, no, again you misunderstood. You store stuff in PCM. Process in PCM. Do all your DSP in PCM. You convert to DSD only at the very end, to perform the conversion.

That can work if you keep all the processing on your PC.

There is the matter of DSD native recordings. I have no problems in having them converted and even distributed as PCM. But even a native DSD recording can just be considered as a rough PCM recording with two extreme values, which then can be filtered to, say, 90Khz, then PCM processed (including volume control) and converted back. This can be done with no loss.

Or they could stop trying to be special, record it it in PCM, and skip the extra conversion.

Wait. . . this the Topping D90 thread, right?!?

Yes, we should probably stop now.

 

[mocenigo]

But what is the point of any of that? Cheap high quality PCM DACs are already a solved problem and PCM DACs aren't going anywhere. Absolute best case scenario is that you gain several dB of SINAD in DSD mode.

Yes, but:

1. PCM DACs often are delta sigma anyway, so why not go the delta sigma way directly? (not that *I* am interested, I have a r2r discrete DAC...)
2. We are on ASR. We drool here on every fraction of Db won on SINAD (not that *I* am interested, I have a r2r discrete DAC...)

By relying on external conversion you're increasing overall complexity anyway.

Not sure, the conversion complexity is often still there, but if hidden it is also hardwired. A system that is as simple as upgrading SW is not too bad.

Yes, we should probably stop now.

With this post, I shall do as well. Cheers. I am curious about the D90 BTW.

 

[Tks]

Regarding DAPs, we'll probably get desktop level performance out of them soon as more manufacturers are aware of Amir's efforts of exposing their design flaws through thorough measurements. Unfortunately, almost all of them are turning to Android as consumers are pushing for that streaming functionality with their DAPs (and of course they only run on Android). Competition also drove R&D efforts to not even consider designing their own custom OS from ground up (this approach would allow click-wheel functionality like from old iPods) and attaching a skin UI while stripping other Android functionality is far easier to achieve thus less costly and less headache for troubleshooting for end users. IMO, it's not that Android is highly inefficient as you can see how long lasting those flagship phones go with their 5000 mAh battery. I blame it more on manufacturer's approach of turning off power savings on the flagship DAPs as they believe that power saving states will cause worse sound quality (not audio performance IMO). The AK doesn't even have a standby mode that other DAPs have (instead it has a user adjustable timer for turning off the unit completely when not in use). That's why I see the AK DAP as "luxury/collector's item" (just look at the build quality and chassis design) rather than a functional DAP (smartphones and DAPs with tons of dedicated buttons that have over 20 hrs of music playback)

I hate this about this planet...

In the past when everything was more difficult to achieve technologically, we had companies making the effort.. Now, ANY cost cutting measure that is remotely available, is implemented with prejudice. It just boggles my mind how deeply inept the form of economics we live under just does away with so many decent things..

Oh and a side comment about that power design on the A&K.. no standby mode? This is pure lunacy.. I know for a fact the engineers don't believe in such nonsense, but the marketing team forces this due to the demographic they appeal to mostly.

 

[majingotan]

Oh and a side comment about that power design on the A&K.. no standby mode? This is pure lunacy.. I know for a fact the engineers don't believe in such nonsense, but the marketing team forces this due to the demographic they appeal to mostly.

They could’ve added that standby mode of course so that people don’t have to keep powering on the device (instant on), and that no more than 2% battery drain per 24 hour standby. But that’s least likely to happen as you’ve already explained. From my experience, the amp just mutes when not in use before shutting off like those from Chord Mojo/Hugo DAC/amps. You can only adjust screen off timer and power off timer. And it takes 16 seconds from power-on to pressing play. I turn the unit on first before putting my IEM on to lessen the wait time though personally it’s just a minor inconvenience for me

 

[maverickronin]

this approach would allow click-wheel functionality like from old iPods

I wish my Rio Karma still worked. I used to be able to queue up my favorite albums without even looking at it. Just count the clicks.

 

[PorchSong]

So, the D90 (with MQA) paired with the THX-789 is quite possibly end game setup with the greatest flexibility before stepping out into the deep end of gear costing tens of thousands. I mean, really, will any of us actually hear the difference in blind AB testing beyond this setup? Really?

This truly is the golden age of "affordable" audio excellence.

Thank you, Amirm for opening my eyes (ears) to this hobby and holding companies accountable.

 

[Ntrax]

Anyone know how to pair the D90 BT? i couldn't on the BT.

 

[Rigel]

Hello Ntrax.

I have only tested with my smartphone.
To do this, you have to connect the antenna if you do not have it, activate the bluetooth in the configuration mode, if you do not already have it activated and then pair it with the mobile phone, once it appears that the devices found. Once paired, I have had no trouble playing music with it anymore.

 

[Ntrax]

Hello Ntrax.

I have only tested with my smartphone.
To do this, you have to connect the antenna if you do not have it, activate the bluetooth in the configuration mode, if you do not already have it activated and then pair it with the mobile phone, once it appears that the devices found. Once paired, I have had no trouble playing music with it anymore.

Thanks so much. They sound awesome on LDAC too.

 

[Rigel]

I'm glad it works for you.
Yes, it sounds pretty good.

 

[da Choge]

The Topping D90 MQA is listed on Amazon now (through ShenzenAudio). They have it listed only in black, and I really want the silver finish. As almost all of Topping's products come in both finishes, I'm really hoping that I will see the Silver D90 MQA on Amazon shortly as well as the black. I emailed Shenzen to inquire if they were getting any silver in stock, so I'll let you know what they tell me.

 

[Mikechw]

https://shenzhenaudio.com/collectio...-dsd512-hi-res-decoder?variant=33442681454724

I think they can ship anywhere..

 

[Rover]

Good morning everyone, good morning TheInquiring.
Today I connected the topping directly to the final Pass, and I must say that it took a little time to get used to the new sound.
I was convinced to try a unit worse than the lindeman in terms of preamp, instead I would say that overall it is quite good. Good in the sense that if you are a demanding audiophile its performance will not be enough, but you can still listen to the audio system without rushing to buy a preamplifier.
Now we come to listening: With the direct connection to the end the voices acquire more naturalness and I also felt a pinch of microdetail more, on the other hand however I lost control and detail at low frequencies, I lost a lot in exension of the sound image, the dynamics are slightly lower, the sound is more amber, closed, slow, and loses in softness.
By raising the volume the scene remains flatter and with less resolution, but on the other hand gains a quieter background and a slight improvement in the separation of the instruments.
The general balance is as good for both as it was foreseeable .... being in fact preamplifiers with digital volume control I expected it.
Regarding the new FLS, I have no way to try it, Audia products are quite rare even in Italy, indeed perhaps more, here they are very tied to the blazon. In any case, to have a real performance leap you should not look at the FLS but at the Instrument, and in any case always after having made at least one listening to understand its setting because what can please me, may not please you. Regardless of how much HIFI is a product.
Thanks for the good wishes, with regards to the coronavirus we get out well, I would say on a par with other seasonal influences. In fact, I don't understand all this alarmism from the institutions. (closed OT)
Regards.
Emanuele.

Thank you for determining the quality of the D90 preamp.
I had the same idea.I use the Emotiva TA-100 as a preamp with the D90.This sounds with a large volume of the scene,with a good study of each instrument in the recording, worked out on high frequencies.I agree that at first the built-in D90 is enough but not enough to evaluate the D90 100%.I am not an audiophile and therefore I can not describe the difference in sound beautifully and this is my personal opinion that I do not impose on anyone .It's just nice when your opinion coincides with the person who wrote the review.D90 is apparently a very high quality DAC on today.Topping well done released such a high-quality product on the new AK4499!

 

[da Choge]

I think they can ship anywhere..

Yep - it's up on the ShenzenAudio site and on Amazon (US). Yesterday, Amazon had only the Black MQA D90 listed. I've been communicating per email with a Shenzen representative and they have been very quick to respond and very helpful. Now they have both the Black and Silver D90 MQAs up, so I went ahead and ordered the Silver one from Amazon (I had lots of Amex points on Amazon) - ShenzenAudio was the actual supplier. Here's a link to the Amazon site; Topping D90 MQA . Shipping is free, but it looks like it's going to take some time to arrive. ShenzenAudio has been a good and reliable company to deal with as far as this experience and past ones as well.

The MQA version of the D90 uses a different USB chip; the XMOS XU216 (while the standard D90 uses the XU208) - that's one reason they are not firmware upgradeable or interchangeable.

 

[Hemi-Demon]

Yep - it's up on the ShenzenAudio site and on Amazon (US). Yesterday, Amazon had only the Black MQA D90 listed. I've been communicating per email with a Shenzen representative and they have been very quick to respond and very helpful. Now they have both the Black and Silver D90 MQAs up, so I went ahead and ordered the Silver one from Amazon (I had lots of Amex points on Amazon) - ShenzenAudio was the actual supplier. Here's a link to the Amazon site; Topping D90 MQA . Shipping is free, but it looks like it's going to take some time to arrive. ShenzenAudio has been a good and reliable company to deal with as far as this experience and past ones as well.

The MQA version of the D90 uses a different USB chip; the XMOS XU216 (while the standard D90 uses the XU208) - that's one reason they are not firmware upgradeable or interchangeable.

Curious how they fixed the MQA/driver issues with the XU216 that have been exhibited in other devices that have used that USB card (Gustard and SMSL for example).

Mine is perfect (non MQA D90), yet some folks on other forums have complained quite a bit about poor USB implementation.

It would be great of Topping could confirm what batches had USB issues (per Wolf pre release review) and updated the firmware.

Id rather dual chip, an extra balanced output over an unnecessary $100 up charge for MQA, which will be a dead standard in a few years.

 

[da Choge]

It would be great [if] Topping could confirm what batches had USB issues (per Wolf pre release review) and updated the firmware.

I thought both Wolf and Amir found issues with the AES input (that were subsequently fixed) and not the USB. I was not aware of other brands having problems with the use of the XMOS XU216 chip, but would be very interested to learn more about those issues.

BTW, I agree that MQA could fade away at some point, but as long as its implementation does not affect the D90's performance adversely, I have no issue with it being included as an extra feature (yes, there's that extra $100 - not a great positive, but less than what other manufacturers charge for the same feature). It will likely be 3 weeks before I receive my D90 MQA, but will report back if I experience any USB instabilities or perceived degradations from what others have reported about the standard D90. And, I would not be totally surprised if Topping's first MQA release might have some minor hiccups with the units and their firmware -- we'll see. Frankly, I was quite surprised to see it come out at about the timeline they predicted (with all the craziness going on these days). Topping has proved to be a fairly responsive manufacturer and one that wants to please.

PS - Dual AK4499 chips would have been great!!!

 

[Rover]

Curious how they fixed the MQA/driver issues with the XU216 that have been exhibited in other devices that have used that USB card (Gustard and SMSL for example).

Mine is perfect (non MQA D90), yet some folks on other forums have complained quite a bit about poor USB implementation.

It would be great of Topping could confirm what batches had USB issues (per Wolf pre release review) and updated the firmware.

Id rather dual chip, an extra balanced output over an unnecessary $100 up charge for MQA, which will be a dead standard in a few years.

Yes, the MQA is an artificial format. By artificially processing , it adds artificial harmonics and an increase in the discretization frequency to the original record. It was mainly created for encoding paid content and making profit.
Business is nothing personal!

 

[catbb67]

I wish my Rio Karma still worked. I used to be able to queue up my favorite albums without even looking at it. Just count the clicks.

Wow. I had the both Karma and the Carbon back in early 2000's. Very few lossless players back then.