Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review

[stevenswall]

IMO you're focusing too much on the on-axis response. The on- and off-axis responses, taken as a whole, are much more important to perceived tonal balance than deviations in axial response of 0.5 or 1dB.

Is this true in all situations? (Anechoic, untreated room, treated room)

If it's true in an anechoic chamber and a treated room, and Genelec is flattening out the off axis response at the small cost of on axis response, which makes us perceive a speaker as more accurate, I rest my case: Genelec is no longer blindly pursuing louder, less accurate, less extended speakers over the last decade in my mind. I wonder if any other objectivists have looked at the Genelec "spec decline" over the years and came to a similar (hopefully incorrect) conclusion.

 

[carlob]

wasn't it the entire point of studio monitors to listen to direct sound with no reflections?

 

[JAP]

That makes more sense. It sounds like you're saying bass extension and on axis accuracy aren't going to overcome the better controlled directivity of the newer models. (I was thinking the preference score on the 8260 would be higher without a subwoofer because other speakers would need a subwoofer to extend flat down to 20hz in a room... So maybe the 8260 without a subwoofer would be more like the 8341 with a subwoofer score, plus more because it's more accurate, though from what you're saying, that small advantage doesn't outweigh the better controlled dispersion.)

Unfortunate tradeoff. Maybe they will make one with woofers on the side or a rear woofer and seal and it get all of their speakers down to 20hz. Those little dual woofers seem limiting.

Axis accuracy of 1dB or 1,5dB doesn't make any difference in real listening environment. Even in acoustically treated rooms FR will deviate much more than that. And actually this could be corrected with GLM adjustments anyway. Extension is sure one thing, but it doesn't come without trade-off at this size category. If you need extension it's better to use subwoofer in the system. There is no 10" woofer that can handle below 30 Hz reflex tuning with proper quality. 8260A may extend close to 20 Hz in listening room, but not nearly loud enough or with reasonable distortion. New models have less extension with much better quality. I do use subs with my 8361 crossed at 80 Hz. It sounds even better - more detailed bass notes and more relaxed sound.

8260A while being a coaxial design at higher frequencies completely lacks vertical directivity 8341A has. So it's very different and actually trust me on this - 8341A with 7370A sub is superior to old 8260A in all aspects. Just arrange a demo at your local dealer. You'll hear the difference immediately.

 

[stevenswall]

I don't think you can call a speaker with significantly inferior off-axis performance more accurate just because its on-axis performance has a 0.5dB tighter tolerance. I think that's the point here.

PS. I realise this is risking becoming quite semantic now though

It's all good, I like what you are posting. I'm probably just looking at the data wrong, because I was looking at their frequency range and accuracy first and foremost, and there were only 2 camps for me with dispersion:

-Coincident drivers that are good to ~30 degrees off axis vertically and horizontally without any "blotches" from lobing: Genelec, KEF, Kali IN-8, Elac Navis, Devialet Phantom Reactor, Cabasse

-All other speakers that use sets of drivers that are not good to ~30 degrees off axis vertically and horizontally, have blotches at the crossover, and only sound balanced in the ideal listening position: Basically garbage in my mind, which is pretty much 95% of speakers.

Looks like I should have been looking closer at the differences in the directivity graphs instead of having two mental buckets. ASR is great for this though and showing scores and details that will make me take a second look at speakers I'd normally dismiss.

 

[JAP]

I'm not saying SAM is not a quality product that required a lot of R&D, but FWIW it's in the bass frequencies DSP requires more hardware processing power, not less.

That could be true (I'm not dsp expert), but I guess 20 Hz - 20 kHz is more taxing than 20 Hz - 100 Hz?

 

[Soniclife]

Haha fair enough I still don't understand though how they can claim to phase-correct a system without introducing pre-echo, though.

It's probably marketing BS, but there is slightly more info at the following link.
https://data.heimkinowelt.at/d/devialet-white-paper.pdf
There used to be a much better explanation on it, where they described how they developed it for the phantom, the most interesting part I remember was they didn't expect it to work with ported speakers, I don't get that either.

 

[infinitesymphony]

wasn't it the entire point of studio monitors to listen to direct sound with no reflections?

Certainly near-field is going to be the primary usage case for monitors of this size. You're most likely to see these deployed in a portable monitoring situation like a tiny space in a production truck. They're great for that purpose, and the close distance negates the need for high SPL.

 

[andreasmaaan]

It's probably marketing BS, but there is slightly more info at the following link.
https://data.heimkinowelt.at/d/devialet-white-paper.pdf
There used to be a much better explanation on it, where they described how they developed it for the phantom, the most interesting part I remember was they didn't expect it to work with ported speakers, I don't get that either.

Thanks, will have a read

EDIT: was not very enlightening

 

[stevenswall]

1. And actually this could be corrected with GLM adjustments anyway.

2. Extension is sure one thing, but it doesn't come without trade-off at this size category. If you need extension it's better to use subwoofer in the system. There is no 10" woofer that can handle below 30 Hz reflex tuning with proper quality.

3. 8260A may extend close to 20 Hz in listening room, but not nearly loud enough or with reasonable distortion. New models have less extension with much better quality. I do use subs with my 8361 crossed at 80 Hz. It sounds even better - more detailed bass notes and more relaxed sound.

4. 8341A with 7370A sub is superior to old 8260A in all aspects. Just arrange a demo at your local dealer. You'll hear the difference immediately.

1. I don't think GLM will correct high frequencies.

2. The trade off is power consumption, and the best example is much smaller and reaches down to 20hz: Devialet Phantom Reactor, which most dismiss, but the measurements Napilopez has done seem quite promising. Is the port the issue? Is it an audible issue? Just seems like it puts out more deep, undistorted bass that other speakers, and I'm saying that from the reference point of a sealed JH Audio IEM.

3. Seems loud enough for me, and I can't hear distortion besides the lack of room treatment. I don't listen super loud though. I wonder if there is a measurement that would show which has more detailed bass? Usually "tightness" seems to correlate with a lack of extension or the assumption that smaller drivers are "quicker."

4. I wish there were a local dealer in Utah, and I'm sure there is a dual sub system that could work with the 8341 to outperform my 8260... It would just cost $15-20k instead of 5k. (Dual subs because the 8260 is like having two subs at the front of the room and works filling out nulls better than a single subwoofer seems to.

 

[JAP]

1. I don't think GLM will correct high frequencies.

Not sure what you mean by this? For parametric notch filters maximum center frequency in GLM is 18 kHz. I'm not saying that you should do corrections above 500 Hz (I dont because natural sounds better), but hardware doesn't limit it at all.

4. I wish there were a local dealer in Utah, and I'm sure there is a dual sub system that could work with the 8341 to outperform my 8260... It would just cost $15-20k instead of 5k. (Dual subs because the 8260 is like having two subs at the front of the room and works filling out nulls better than a single subwoofer seems to.

I'm not sure about price level in your region, but in Finland pair of 8260A is about the same as/slightly less than pair of 8341A + pair of 7360A subs or single 7370A sub. If you have 8260A already maybe it's best to upgrade directly to the final system: pair of 8351B+W371A instead.

 

[thewas]

What aspects of performance do you think lead to that midrange supposedly sounding better?

My guess is extremely low distortion, both harmonic and intermodulation, but as we know these things aren't unfortunately fully understood yet.

 

[mhardy6647]

There's only one SAM. You know, the really cute one who wiggled her nose?

View attachment 51569

I've been thinkin' Surface to Air Missiles throughout this discussion -- some of the speakers that've been tested to date might benefit from a well-aimed SAM.

 

[test1223]

Hi,

you can not simply use a near field monitor in the far field and expect good sound, even if the near field monitor measures as well as the tested genelec speaker. The low directivity with higher listening distance will cause an unbalance between direct sound and all later arriving sound. It will sound not as good as a bigger speaker with higher directivity. Please read the EBU recommendations.

@thewas_ @LTig @MZKM
The cause of the specific sound of Neumanns KH310 is due to the peaks and dips in the directivity. Distortion is far less important. You can spot the KH310 sound "signature" even in recordings of a KH310 playing in a room. All genelec speakers in their class are far ahead of the neumann speakers. If you want higher levels use a Sub or the JBL 7 Series should be of interests.

Thomas

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

3. Seems loud enough for me, and I can't hear distortion besides the lack of room treatment. I don't listen super loud though. I wonder if there is a measurement that would show which has more detailed bass? Usually "tightness" seems to correlate with a lack of extension or the assumption that smaller drivers are "quicker."

4. I wish there were a local dealer in Utah, and I'm sure there is a dual sub system that could work with the 8341 to outperform my 8260... It would just cost $15-20k instead of 5k. (Dual subs because the 8260 is like having two subs at the front of the room and works filling out nulls better than a single subwoofer seems to.

One objective measure for "tightness" is Q value. The Rythmik G22 and G25HP servo subwoofers have Q value of 0.1 and almost no cabinet resonance due to the dual opposed drivers.

I encourage you to measure the bass response in your room. Two speakers placed in the front of the room is not likely to fill out nulls sufficiently for accurate sound.

 

[JAP]

2. The trade off is power consumption, and the best example is much smaller and reaches down to 20hz: Devialet Phantom Reactor, which most dismiss, but the measurements Napilopez has done seem quite promising. Is the port the issue? Is it an audible issue? Just seems like it puts out more deep, undistorted bass that other speakers, and I'm saying that from the reference point of a sealed JH Audio IEM.

Yes you may add power, but that will lead to the problems with driver. Heat will cause compression and extended excursion means non-linear operation. It all comes down to perceived quality in the end.

3. Seems loud enough for me, and I can't hear distortion besides the lack of room treatment. I don't listen super loud though. I wonder if there is a measurement that would show which has more detailed bass? Usually "tightness" seems to correlate with a lack of extension or the assumption that smaller drivers are "quicker."

With Genelec you can't really hear the distortion. Protection circuitry limits and cuts off before it happens. In conventional speakers when you hear it there will likely already be damage to voice coils or it's very close to that point. There is a lot of port noise etc. However what you can hear is how the bass note is reproduced. There are a lot of subs and speakers that go really low without physical properties needed to achieve it. They will often sound like boomy one note wonder boxes. I think it's because of limitations above and hugely increased distortion. I don't think there is a single measurement that would tell this. To me it has always been best to trust my own ears.

 

[thewas]

The cause of the specific sound of Neumanns KH310 is due to the peaks and dips in the directivity.

Sorry, but the mentioned Genelec 8050 doesn't have neither better directivity or distortion in the mid range compared to the KH310 and a 8341 (which is significantly more expensive in Germany compared to a KH310) has much lower SPL limits.

All genelec speakers in their class are fare ahead of the neumann speakers.

Such generalisations are just BS and and I would never claim say such although I own a pair of Genelec and not Neumann.

 

[tuga]

Ok, but it's not just corner gain that's at play here. To start with, you're getting +6dB gain from the floor there. Then an unknown amount from back and side walls. You may well already be getting more than 10 or 15dB of boost just from the first reflections. Then you have all the secondary reflections. The critical distance in a typical room is typically less than 2m. The SPL that speaker is outputting in your measurement may well translate to less than 90dB @1m anechoically.

I agree that these small boxes would almost certainly perform worse, though.

Can you determine whether the tiny woofers are screaming by looking at the FR plots in a spinorama?

 

[JAP]

Hi,

you can not simply use a near field monitor in the far field and expect good sound, even if the near field monitor measures as well as the tested genelec speaker. The low directivity with higher listening distance will cause an unbalance between direct sound and all later arriving sound. It will sound not as good as a bigger speaker with higher directivity.

Can you please give couple of examples of bigger loudspeakers (excluding dipole and cardioid principles) that have higher directivity than 8341A?

 

[stevenswall]

Yes you may add power, but that will lead to the problems with driver. Heat will cause compression and extended excursion means non-linear operation. It all comes down to perceived quality in the end.



With Genelec you can't really hear the distortion... There are a lot of subs and speakers that go really low without physical properties needed to achieve it. They will often sound like boomy one note wonder boxes... To me it has always been best to trust my own ears.

It doesn't inherently lead to problems with the driver, and Devialet models their driver behavior and measures it specifically so that they sound like what they are aiming for. Perceived quality on the Phantom Reactor seems to be high by everyone who had heard them.

You're right, I don't hear distortion even in the bass with my Genelec. They and the Devialet Phantom reactor don't sound like bommy one note boxes... Which should be expected, because their designs literally aren't boxes, which is something most manufacturers refuse to deviate from.

 

[stevenswall]

One objective measure for "tightness" is Q value. The Rythmik G22 and G25HP servo subwoofers have Q value of 0.1 and almost no cabinet resonance due to the dual opposed drivers.

I encourage you to measure the bass response in your room. Two speakers placed in the front of the room is not likely to fill out nulls sufficiently for accurate sound.

Thanks, I've been looking at Rythmik subs. I think they have a smaller dual opposed one I might try in the future. Trying to get over the "driver slapped on a box" aversion I have.


Yeah, I don't think two speakers will give accurate sound everywhere, just like one subwoofer wouldn't. <y point was that for comparison's sake, I'd want two sources of subwoofer frequencies paired with an 8341 set as the 8260 would be closer to that than a single subwoofer trying to evenly fill a room.