Tonearm, yes tonearms for record players.

[Frank Dernie]

I got the sense he was very proud of the idea and the finished product. It was more a personal statement than a considered engineering contribution.

It isn't as if tonearm bearings are difficult, or expensive, to do well compared to dressing arm leads such that they don't influence the performance or look awful.

 

[scott wurcer]

It was very wobbly with the slightest touch. No compensation built-in. I asked the vendor/designer about it and he changed the subject.

Sounds like a good match to the Mag-Lev turntable, I was LOL when I saw a national TV add for some lifestyle site with one wobbling away.

 

[Wes]

here the best one

 

[anmpr1]

Saw this one at the Toronto Audio Fest

Magnetic repulsion at the tonearm bearing is not a new idea. One of the earliest was the mid-sixties Castagna tonearm, which design was later used by Sao Win for his turntable. Unlike the one at the show, Castagna used jeweled bearings to fix the arm, with magnets providing reduced mass load on the bearings. Interesting how the designer of the new arm is using what appears to be a very old Pickering cartridge. Pickering/Stanton made a turntable with a magnetic bearing, altough I never encountered one or new anyone that used one.

 

[pozz]

I wish I had known of this design and had the shot of manual back then. Maybe he would have said a bit more.

 

[anmpr1]

Some arms have used magnetic anti-skating. My Garrard Z-100 has that. I also had a Thorens TD-160 with TP-16 arm. If I am not mistaken the Thorens arm used magnetic antiskating. I found a 1965 review of the Castagna. It was very expensive for the time.

 

[mhardy6647]

so... I was looking for something else entirely* yesterday, and I stumbled on this little bon mot in Audio magazine that seems somewhat apropos here in this thread. Note that the author is a Brooklyn, NY based opera singer (now deceased) who also had a little hifi company that built phono cartridges (still does) and - later - also headphones.

source: https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1977-08.pdf

... as an aside, I was and still am a pretty big fan of Joe's phono cartridges.

_________________
* "Time alignment" -- from the same issue of Audio. Jeepers, I miss Audio still.

(I added the curly bracket to ID the anecdote that I had sought)

 

[restorer-john]

... as an aside, I was and still am a pretty big fan of Joe's phono cartridges.

That is a gnarly looking headshell and cartridge, covered in mould/fungus- looks like some I used to find in garage sales and kerbside pickups that had spent several decades in a festering basement.

 

[mhardy6647]

Just nigh on 30 years of crud. I had put that thirteen USD Grado FTE+1 on a Philips 308 tt for my parents ca. 1980; that's what it looked like when I recovered it ca. 2007. I did clean it up a bit; still sounds good. Best 13 dollar cartridge ever IMO.

 

[restorer-john]

that's what it looked like when I recovered it ca. 2007. I did clean it up a bit; still sounds good.

I've got some pics of a worse one someplace. I put the entire cartridge, stylus and headshell in the ultrasonic cleaner as I had nothing to lose it was so filthy. Came out like new and after drying it out- goes like a demon!

 

[anmpr1]

...the author is a Brooklyn, NY based opera singer ...... as an aside, I was and still am a pretty big fan of Joe's phono cartridges. Jeepers, I miss Audio still.

Joe was always iconoclastic. He made MC, MI, and I believe MM cartridges--whatever he fancied at the time. He was probably the first US cartridge maker to come out with an over the top outrageously expensive model. Whereas Yoshiaki Sugano understood that if he was going to sell cartridges at Chanel handbag prices they had to look both expensive and exclusive, the first of Joe's 'Signatures' looked as cheezy as his low end models. Later he decided to encase them in wood sleeves, but even those look second-rate by Koetsu standards. My guess is that Grado is the only remaining cartridge maker left in America.

And yes, Audio was a magazine to look forward to. Toward their latter days they went a little goofy hiring Anthony Cordesman to write nonsense. But you could almost over look that given the overall product.

 

[DSJR]

In my increasingly later years, I'm beginning t realise what a load of nonsense was often talked about vinyl and its reproduction - yes, by myself as well I suppose (Purite Keith, you'd know amongst others )

Audiophiles love something to twiddle and mess with, so what better than a record player arm and cartridge with so many compromises and variables built in all ready to go?

The thing is, the Rega RB300 with its low resonance construction (and also the now mad money SME V family) were criticised for sounding bland and 'grey,' where in my experience, all they were doing was showing the cartridge, mounting board material (in the case of the Rega) and vinyl for what they were. i did find some excellent cartridges for them (AT-F5 for the RB300 and the Goldring 1042 worked well in it back then if not so well elsewhere) and gorgeous looking Kiseki Agate Ruby sounded sublime in the SME I recall with no hint of blandness or 'grey timbres... One company that uses Rega RB arms as base and modifies the sh*t out of them with well reviewed results, is basically adding a massive 'zing' in the midrange to liven the tone up artificially. A competing European made arm with 'carbon fibre (wow!)' does exactly the same thing judging by reviews I 've read.

I just think now that the remaining vinyl audiophiles out there have no idea or wish to know, what the master tape or file actually sounds like, as it'd break the spells they cast and I suspect it's one reason why so many still deride 'digital' as devil's work. I was removed from a third party (dealer?) Facebook page for a well known speaker company because I preferred digital to typical vinyl and sold my high speed Revox IEC B77mk2 and copy master tapes I had back in the 90's...

By the way, what the hell is it about the Denon Dl103? It's great at the beginning of side, but can't owners hear the hf tail off towards the side end due to the conical tip? I had a 103D (better diamond profile) in a Mission 774 arm once and liked it a lot (this arm suits an old LP12 well too), but went over to the dark side when the Ittok and original Asak (mistracker) came along so memories are very distant now.

 

[mhardy6647]

Joe was always iconoclastic. He made MC, MI, and I believe MM cartridges--whatever he fancied at the time. He was probably the first US cartridge maker to come out with an over the top outrageously expensive model. Whereas Yoshiaki Sugano understood that if he was going to sell cartridges at Chanel handbag prices they had to look both expensive and exclusive, the first of Joe's 'Signatures' looked as cheezy as his low end models. Later he decided to encase them in wood sleeves, but even those look second-rate by Koetsu standards. My guess is that Grado is the only remaining cartridge maker left in America.

And yes, Audio was a magazine to look forward to. Toward their latter days they went a little goofy hiring Anthony Cordesman to write nonsense. But you could almost over look that given the overall product.

My understanding (see the Stereophile obit below) is that Joe Grado developed (and patented) the MC cartridge, but subsequently abandoned that configuration for MI cartridges.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/joe-grado-19251915

Grado made an interesting wooden tonearm, as well.

source: http://www.alliedcatalogs.com/html/1961-200/hr095.html

By the way, what the hell is it about the Denon Dl103? It's great at the beginning of side, but can't owners hear the hf tail off towards the side end due to the conical tip?

Ohh, ohh -- I can answer that For a while, a company in Florida ("Comet Supply") was selling new (and ostensibly not grey market) DL-103s for $118. For 118, I don't think you'll ever find* anything that sounds better overall (then or now). That's why I use one. I wish I'd have bought more of 'em when they were $118.
________________
* OK, more to the point, I'll ever find...

 

[DSJR]

For marketing over benefit, what about the Garrard Zero 100 tonearm, based on tech described above I think, trying to keep the tracking error eliminated from beginning to end of side? Fascinating to watch working and a styling/colourscheme masterpiece in original idler driven form, but I suspect the improvements were more academic really, as potential distortion due to tracking error isn't an issue doe to higher reading speeds at the beginning of side? Surviving decks are very much conversation pieces these days and mine (an orignal idler driven 'autochanger') doesn't sound anything like as bad as I expected it to, despite all the extra swivel bearings around the headshell and so on (the secondary 'rod' has a captive unipivot at the tonearm end. Totally opposite to the fixed headshell for maximum rigidity and close coupling of many audiophile arms.

 

[DSJR]

P.S. The DL103 was £120 here for ages and I think, even around the same price in the financial crash in 2008. After this period, some audio manufacturers put their prices up wholesale and I'm convinced the currency situation wasn't the only driver for this as some prices doubled quickly and others didn't seem to. Amazing how the humbler DL110 went from eighty quid to around two hundred since then (£249 in some shops and £179 in others - a massive price difference larger than trade margins I think). Maybe some parts used shot up in raw prices...

 

[AudioSceptic]

Getting a new Gramaphone which doesn’t have a tonearm, I thought perhaps we could discuss the design criteria, any stand out designs or is simply one compromise versus another.
Keith

Just get a Rega RB300 or derivative. It's got most of the right design attributes and all for sensible money. Effective mass is moderate so it works with most cartridges.

(Does anyone still make super low VTF MM designs, such as the ADC 25/26, these days? I think most are in the 1.5-2.0 g range, like MCs.)

 

[anmpr1]

For marketing over benefit, what about the Garrard Zero 100 tonearm...

Funny you should ask. I've owned three, and have a perfectly restored machine currently in service. IMO it does some things wonderfully, but you'd never imagine that is the case from looking at it. Maybe it is my imagination. The tangent arm produces a very clean sound sans tracking error. The cartridge I've found that really works well in it is the Shure M97xE. The damped brush tames resonances in the pantograph arm--keeping it steady. Or, for 45s (remember them?) the ballpoint pen Ortofon Pro S (tracking at 3 g). That works well.

The AT 740ML at 2 g works OK. Pickering XV15-1200e (Stanton 681eee) is not as good a match, and the dust brush doesn't help things because it is not viscous damped.

The Denon DL-103 does not work well in the arm. I thought it might since it requires a higher tracking force and higher mass arm, but it jumps all over the place in the Z arm.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Funny you should ask. I've owned three, and have a perfectly restored machine currently in service. IMO it does some things wonderfully, but you'd never imagine that is the case from looking at it. Maybe it is my imagination. The tangent arm produces a very clean sound sans tracking error. The cartridge I've found that really works well in it is the Shure M97xE. The damped brush tames resonances in the pantograph arm--keeping it steady. Or, for 45s (remember them?) the ballpoint pen Ortofon Pro S (tracking at 3 g). That works well.

The AT 740ML at 2 g works OK. Pickering XV15-1200e (Stanton 681eee) is not as good a match, and the dust brush doesn't help things because it is not viscous damped.

The Denon DL-103 does not work well in the arm. I thought it might since it requires a higher tracking force and higher mass arm, but it jumps all over the place in the Z arm.

Was the Zero 100 arm ever available separately? I thought you could only get it as part of a complete Garrard TT.

 

[Apesbrain]

here the best one

You might be onto something...

 

[mhardy6647]

For marketing over benefit, what about the Garrard Zero 100 tonearm, based on tech described above I think, trying to keep the tracking error eliminated from beginning to end of side? Fascinating to watch working and a styling/colourscheme masterpiece in original idler driven form, but I suspect the improvements were more academic really, as potential distortion due to tracking error isn't an issue doe to higher reading speeds at the beginning of side? Surviving decks are very much conversation pieces these days and mine (an orignal idler driven 'autochanger') doesn't sound anything like as bad as I expected it to, despite all the extra swivel bearings around the headshell and so on (the secondary 'rod' has a captive unipivot at the tonearm end. Totally opposite to the fixed headshell for maximum rigidity and close coupling of many audiophile arms.

The problem with the Garrard zero tracking error arm was all in the execution, as far as I was (am) concerned.
Not a terrible idea, but a terrible bit of hardware IMO/IME.

(can't find a photo of the one that passed through here years back, unfortunately)

source: https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Lafayette-Catalogs/Lafayette-1976-Catalog.pdf