Great high efficiency speakers. IMHO Bill Dudleston's best all time design. A very serious speaker!
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Do you prefer floorstanding speakers or bookshelf speakers? Which do you find sound generally better at the same pricepoint?
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My wife owns a grand piano (birthday present many years ago, bought me a lot of trumpet chits
) and that is about what I measured in the room. She gets paid to play, and we do duets now and then, so it's used for more than "home exercise". The orchestra can adjust its volume, and the piano is placed to emphasize its projection to the audience when featured. On stage, with either a 12' Steinway or a 16' Bosendorfer, I measured closer to 80 dB average and peaks over 100 dB, not sure I have actually measured 120 dB. The hall here does use sound reinforcement though it is pretty "light". What have you measured?How could I? How not? It's music, sounds good at most any level. My average listening level is around 75-80 dB. I have tinnitus enough from years of playing and listening so don't want to aggravate it further. I've had my time of 100~120 dB concert levels when I was doing sound for live concerts and rock bands; nowadays, I only listen to that sort of level at peaks. And the orchestras I have heard recently were close to my average when I was in the middle floor section near the sound booth, with peaks (per the sound guy, I was curious) of around 100+ dB with an average of ~85 dB. That includes direct sound from the stage plus supplemental sound reinforcement speakers. An average level above 80 dB is pretty loud to me but obviously different people have different tastes.
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After re-watching Dr Toole's CIRMMT lecture video, I was reminded that (starting at ~58:45) we often underestimate the amount of bass we need. At low frequencies, the equal loudness contour works against us.
Take for example the 40 phon and 80 phon curves. To our ears, 90 dB SPL at 30 Hz only sounds as loud as 40 dB SPL at 1 kHz; and 110 db SPL at 30 Hz only sounds as loud as 80 dB SPL at 1 kHz. Another thing counter-intuitive (because we have learned that our hearing is not as sensitive at low frequencies) is that we are actually more sensitive to variations in the low frequencies response. A 5 dB SPL difference at 30 Hz sounds the same as 10 dB SPL difference at ~300 Hz to ~4 kHz.
The message is that, in order to have good sound, we need a prodigious amount of bass and it has to be right.
Take for example the 40 phon and 80 phon curves. To our ears, 90 dB SPL at 30 Hz only sounds as loud as 40 dB SPL at 1 kHz; and 110 db SPL at 30 Hz only sounds as loud as 80 dB SPL at 1 kHz. Another thing counter-intuitive (because we have learned that our hearing is not as sensitive at low frequencies) is that we are actually more sensitive to variations in the low frequencies response. A 5 dB SPL difference at 30 Hz sounds the same as 10 dB SPL difference at ~300 Hz to ~4 kHz.
The message is that, in order to have good sound, we need a prodigious amount of bass and it has to be right.
Cerwin Vega 21" ACTIVE SUBWOOFER ... thump thump... >@^_*@<
http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/powered-speaker-system/active-subwoofer/cva-121.html
https://www.long-mcquade.com/81128/...-Vega/21-Inch-Powered-Subwoofer---Painted.htm
Hi DonH56My wife owns a grand piano (birthday present many years ago, bought me a lot of trumpet chits
How could I? How not? It's music, sounds good at most any level. My average listening level is around 75-80 dB. I have tinnitus enough from years of playing and listening so don't want to aggravate it further. I've had my time of 100~120 dB concert levels when I was doing sound for live concerts and rock bands; nowadays, I only listen to that sort of level at peaks. And the orchestras I have heard recently were close to my average when I was in the middle floor section near the sound booth, with peaks (per the sound guy, I was curious) of around 100+ dB with an average of ~85 dB. That includes direct sound from the stage plus supplemental sound reinforcement speakers. An average level above 80 dB is pretty loud to me but obviously different people have different tastes.
I didn't want to hurt you (or anyone).
My apologizes if that happened.
My sentence was indeed provocative, and intended to be more challenging than factual.
First, I think we agree that speaking of SPL doesn't mean much without specifying distance, room size, weghting, and knowing, indeed, if we speak peak of average, and also what's the music actual dynamic range.
In the original quote I made about 80dB, the person was speaking about 'Max leve'l, which I interpreted as Peak, indeed.
You're the only one I know having a grand piano at home. A friend of mine has a 3/4 and that's already the price of a serious car. Congratulations !
I never actually measured the,SPL level of one. I just know it CAN be very loud, much louder than most people think.
I also agree that we don't want to turn deaf when listening at home. I also had enough too loud rock in small or big venues, or even rehearsal rooms.
Distortion is one thing that turns loudness into pain.
At some point, my ears are adding their own.
Laws, like in France, which limit the SPL level drastically in public events (at any point in room) are positive, in my opinion (at least when realistic and accurate enough).
They also lead to the generalization of line array technology for large venue, since they allow a much more coherent SPL spread across the whole area, which I think is also good.
(Note that these laws may become a problem for small-size venues, since the direct instrument sound may already be above the limit. There have been a lot of discussion recently about this. But that's another discussion )
But the whole (and serious) point about listening level at home is, for me: can we really get the same pleasure (critically) listening to music at a hugely different level than the original, and, if yes, by how much?
There is the physiologic impact of level on our perception of frequency response (see post above). There is also the dynamic. I guess the last point is more about your room noise level.
Of course, there are varied way to enjoy music.
Background music, even with very limited bandwidth, is still a valid way to enjoy music. But sometimes, I like to immerse in real-life music, just like in a concert room. That's probably why I like 'Live' recordings. And, for me, that means loud 'enough'.
Which, coming back to the original question, usually mean a large-enough room and floorstanders, for the dynamic range with reasonable distortion.
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Sorry if I took your post the wrong way; language can be tricky.
In my experience the piano is far from the loudest instrument in the orchestra though it can certainly be plenty loud. It has been years since I recorded orchestras live, however, so my memory could be faulty.
A large room can provide additional lat(er) reflections to provide more of a sense of space (which can also be replicated by multichannel recordings) and moves fundamental room modes lower in frequency (so less impact on the bass). But of course, as you imply, you need speakers that provide the required dynamic range at the listening position when it is farther away (and an amplifier that can provide the power needed).
I think we are fundamentally in agreement, and it is late here (if early there), have a good day! - Don
In my experience the piano is far from the loudest instrument in the orchestra though it can certainly be plenty loud. It has been years since I recorded orchestras live, however, so my memory could be faulty.
A large room can provide additional lat(er) reflections to provide more of a sense of space (which can also be replicated by multichannel recordings) and moves fundamental room modes lower in frequency (so less impact on the bass). But of course, as you imply, you need speakers that provide the required dynamic range at the listening position when it is farther away (and an amplifier that can provide the power needed).
I think we are fundamentally in agreement, and it is late here (if early there), have a good day! - Don
A great reminder of just how much power it takes to reproduce bass. @amirm is found of saying that many systems are underpowered and in the bass region I tend to agree. 10 dB difference takes ten times the power and if you are listening at 80 dB at 1 kHz then you need about 20 dB more SPL (and thus 100 times the power) to sound as loud at 50 Hz -- and it just goes up from there. I have a small'ish room and four 12" subwoofers to handle the deep bass, mostly to help cancel room modes though they provide a nice margin for loudness.
I too like live recordings over over-managed cut-and-paste studio efforts as they showcase artists in performance.
Depends on the recording for me... Some live recordings are just horrible, while some studio recordings (Sheffield comes to mind) are fantastic. That said, given the choice, a well-recorded live performance better captures the ambience and excitement of the audience and the hall.
And the performers gusto and interaction with each other and the audience.
Sometimes a live performance can obviate recording quality.
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IMO using subs is a matter of what you are used to not peruse what is realistic to listen to from an original sound point of view. I mean it is up to your liking we can't argue with that. I think people are searching for an impressive sound (compression, loudness wars) not peruse how it was intended to sound when it came out the control room put on the master tape with the corresponding acoustic which is probably flat. Even in studio's target curves are these days used to get an more impressive sound targeting the average liking. Have a look at my horrible acoustic room measurement
the mids an highs are dominating (some times up to 15db) the whole sound experience (Grey line) so the lows are minimal yes you can argue to use an sub an you are right to do so i did in fact. Till i used room correction (hard & software) the with line suddenly everything came in balance the lows where back with a vengeance i don't need any subs anymore. I could add a sub the sound will be more impressive but that is not what i'm aming at.
the mids an highs are dominating (some times up to 15db) the whole sound experience (Grey line) so the lows are minimal yes you can argue to use an sub an you are right to do so i did in fact. Till i used room correction (hard & software) the with line suddenly everything came in balance the lows where back with a vengeance i don't need any subs anymore. I could add a sub the sound will be more impressive but that is not what i'm aming at.
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Bookshelves + Subs always for me. Floorstanding speakers have just never clicked for me acoustically or practically. I do agree with @Kal Rubinson that floorstanding speakers are probably the better aesthetic choice though, especially if you plan to actually keep speakers for a long time. Speakers are furniture, and they should look good.
But I personally have no interest in floorstanders that aren't truly full range anyway - as in with enough bass to hit that in-room harman target.
Coming from the headphone world originally, moving to speakers was kind of annoying. With headphones, even the cheapest headphones that can create a decent seal will reach down to 20hz, no problem. Very few floorstanders reach 20hz at adequate levels, so you need a sub anyway. If I need a sub anyways, I might as well get the cheaper and more flexible bookshelf speakers. I consider not having full-range sound unacceptable; much of what I listen to is classical/film scores and hip-hop/rap. Pretty diametrically opposed genres that nonetheless both benefit greatly from full-range sound. Easy with headphones, hard to get right with speakers.
I've got some psychological preference for bookshelves too. The visual 'illusion' of stereo adds to my listening enjoyment, and speakers that disappear always impress me more than big honking speakers that always remind me where the sound is coming from. E.g. the first time I heard a pair of Devialet phantom reactors was more impressive than the first time I heard a pair of Focal Grand Utopias. Not to say the former is better than the latter, but I appreciate the former's 'wow' factor.
But that's just me. I can get why some prefer big honkin cabinets
But I personally have no interest in floorstanders that aren't truly full range anyway - as in with enough bass to hit that in-room harman target.
Coming from the headphone world originally, moving to speakers was kind of annoying. With headphones, even the cheapest headphones that can create a decent seal will reach down to 20hz, no problem. Very few floorstanders reach 20hz at adequate levels, so you need a sub anyway. If I need a sub anyways, I might as well get the cheaper and more flexible bookshelf speakers. I consider not having full-range sound unacceptable; much of what I listen to is classical/film scores and hip-hop/rap. Pretty diametrically opposed genres that nonetheless both benefit greatly from full-range sound. Easy with headphones, hard to get right with speakers.
I've got some psychological preference for bookshelves too. The visual 'illusion' of stereo adds to my listening enjoyment, and speakers that disappear always impress me more than big honking speakers that always remind me where the sound is coming from. E.g. the first time I heard a pair of Devialet phantom reactors was more impressive than the first time I heard a pair of Focal Grand Utopias. Not to say the former is better than the latter, but I appreciate the former's 'wow' factor.
But that's just me. I can get why some prefer big honkin cabinets
I'm in the middle or you could say, best of both worlds.
On the main floor setup is build around Teufel speakers.
Left and Right speaker from the complete front, center, back system are :
Teufel Hybrid 6.2 (boutique shop with factory located in germany)
By the looks they are floorstanding speakers. A closer look at the back reveals the bottom parts are active closed subs, the top part passive bookshelf d'appolito configurations. Top and bottom are fed separately from amplifier. Bottoms (subs) over coax, tops basic speaker wire.
However these speakers have two configurations possible to be choosen with a switch on the back :
1 : feeding the speakers described above (bottom coax, top speaker wire)
2 : feeding the tower only by coax and use the build in high pass filter to feed the top.
On the main floor setup is build around Teufel speakers.
Left and Right speaker from the complete front, center, back system are :
Teufel Hybrid 6.2 (boutique shop with factory located in germany)
By the looks they are floorstanding speakers. A closer look at the back reveals the bottom parts are active closed subs, the top part passive bookshelf d'appolito configurations. Top and bottom are fed separately from amplifier. Bottoms (subs) over coax, tops basic speaker wire.
However these speakers have two configurations possible to be choosen with a switch on the back :
1 : feeding the speakers described above (bottom coax, top speaker wire)
2 : feeding the tower only by coax and use the build in high pass filter to feed the top.
@DonH56 Mind sharing your room dimensions? I want to get a general idea in comparison to my room.
As for speaker type, I was debating this myself about a year ago and with help from the amazing forum members here, I ended up with a sort of hybrid approach - stand-mount speakers (JBL 708P) with a pair of Rythmik FM8s (50Hz - 200Hz) as stands! I have a dedicated sub to handle < 50Hz. I don't anticipate replacing the FM8s and I like the flexibility in case I want/need to replace the JBLs. The trade-off is a rather complicated configuration with more wires and external crossover management. Bottom-line, I learnt that to get good dynamics, you need a lot of drivers and lots of power
13'3" W x 17'7" L x 8'6" H -- L/R/C speakers and TV along the narrow width. The room is acoustically isolated using Kinetics IsoMax clips to suspend walls and ceiling (floor is concrete) and uses a mini-split unit to isolate it from the home HVAC ducts.
Originally it was to be about 30%-50% larger with primed dimensions but we shrunk it to add a bedroom and hallway for my younger son. He wanted to move from upstairs down; it probably adds more value to the house, and he loved it, but I still long for my bigger room at times...
- Frequency Range: 32 Hz - 135 Hz (-10 dB) not really a subwoofer with that spec, more of a loud boom box...
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Is it ok to use bookshelf speakers as monitors, on a desk, by the way?
I'm doing that with Focal Aria 906 at the moment and enjoying it.
When furthur I prefer floorstanders. You pretty much have the stands for free.
I'm doing that with Focal Aria 906 at the moment and enjoying it.
When furthur I prefer floorstanders. You pretty much have the stands for free.
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At the same price point? The lower the price point the more stand mount speakers will have an advantage because the cabinet is the most expensive part. At high price points stand mounts are low value compared to floor standers. At medium price points floor standers will most likely sound better in large rooms, stand mounts in small rooms.
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