UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review

[PierreV]

@FrantzM - it just means that statisticians are all such hardcore objectivists that they can't be fooled and won't tolerate any ambiguity in any step of the process. Rest assured that, unlike audiophilia, it is not a messy field where the subjectivist tribe eternally fights the objectivist tribe and vice versa. No, no, no... in statistics, one objectivist tribe eternally fights the other objectivist tribe (and, of course, vice versa).

“A Bayesian is one who, vaguely expecting a horse, and catching a glimpse of a donkey, strongly believes he has seen a mule.”

Courtesy of https://www.xkcd.com/1132/

 

[Milt]

With some saying your testing is flawed I don't see the merit based alternatives.

I understand you're plissken on AS.
If so, I have to ask why you still post there?
You must have an extremely high tolerance for BS.

I found that site around 3 years ago when researching NAS-based audio system.
After a while I figured out that most of what passes for reality\consensus there is total bullshit.
I loved reading your posts as a voice of reason and real-world experience like my own.
I worked for about a year in IT networking before I switched to software related work.
I extensively studied packet transmission and everything else related to digital transmission and networks.

I couldn't take the voodoo that they assign as "Science" and the mystical improvements that most every widget evinced to eager ears, especially with the various Uptone Audio little black boxes.

Chris is a nice guy but if anyone has a vested interest in furthering crap like this, it is him.

 

[restorer-john]

I will be ordering a batch of (soft and fragile) fluorite crystals from China soon, and in a few weeks I will be a "purveyor of crystals." But the customers will need to provide any magic if that is what they desire.

Watch out, the Chinese "fluorite" is almost certainly fake, and often irradiated to enhance the colour...

 

[Milt]

I did a Google translate on the Chinese word for fluorite, it came back fentanyl

 

[dincus]

I'd stop paying attention to this way back when. So you choose your own routing/shielding within the cable? Think of the construction of an ethernet cable that works this way. Lush ethernet.

There is this product. Also quite interesting to listen to

 

[imagidominc]

It says a lot when you can fry an egg on your "magical" audio gear. I wonder if the sizzling of the egg makes it sound more analog?

 

[Cahudson42]

@amirm
This whole episode with the Uptone EtherREGEN has occupied far too much of your time and here - as it used to be said , far too many 'column inches' as well.

You have exposed this fraud for what it is.

At this point, a moderator should permanently close this thread and we move on.

 

[Tks]

Those “performance advantages” only apply on the test bench though. They are as equally useless in practice as UpTone switch vs Netgear.

And these minuscule “performance advantages” are enough to exalt one company here and throw another in the garbage can.

For those upset with the marketing of Uptone, I’ll bet you my bank account that the folks at Matrix would tell you their top range DAC sounds better than their budget range despite both measuring below the audibility range for distortion, etc.

Yeah so does a La Ferrari's ability to beat pedestrian cars in a race. You're then going to sit here and give the engineering differences under the hood the same "minuscule" moniker as well and somehow imply that we should also ascribe a similar value placement? As most people will never see the fully potential realized, outside of windtunnels and other "on paper" demonstrations in controlled testing, you can argue this is sensible and typical of normal behavior if your logic was taken further..

At least these "useless in practice" and "miniscuel performance advantages" (the performance advantages that you spoke about only existing on a bench) exist as a matter of fact. The majority of audiophool nonsense exists either in pure fiction, lies, or subjective feeling. If they ever exist in fact it is ONLY by sheer coincidence they brush up against scientifically demonstrated fact in the first place that wasn't a total violation of the laws of nature.

 

[LTig]

For those upset with the marketing of Uptone, I’ll bet you my bank account that the folks at Matrix would tell you their top range DAC sounds better than their budget range despite both measuring below the audibility range for distortion, etc.

Don't know about Matrix but Benchmark in fact does just the opposite:

Measured Differences Are Not Always Audible​

​

It is easy to show that the DAC2 measures better than the DAC1 in almost every way. From a marketing perspective it would be tempting to claim that all of these measured differences make audible improvements, but this just isn't the case. The truth is that many of these measured differences should be inaudible when the playback system is properly set up with an ideal gain structure. Both products measure very well because both products are designed to be transparent. This means that they are designed to get out of the way and deliver a clean, uncolored, and quiet output.​

 

[dincus]

Wow. I have been discussing this elsewhere. It's utterly incredible the ability of some to deny factual evidence. It's utterly mind boggling.

You can politely and patiently explain the reasons, the cause and effect (or lack of) and then they turn round and say "but you haven't heard it". Followed by being offensive.

Why is it that some are incapable of vaguely critical thought?

You really can't get much more simple than pulling the ethernet lead out with the music continuing perfectly to demonstrate just how divorced the switch is from what comes out the dac. Yet some will point blank deny this is any kind of evidence.

Is this part of the seemingly wider social issue of science denial? Is it part of the same human aspect that drives religous faith? Does this simply go generally hand in hand with a personality that tends to be an audiophile - someone that will have a tendancy to obsess over improvements in the system instead of actually listening to music?

I am honestly confounded by what I see. It's borderline irrational behaviour. People will admit they have no knowledge or competence in an area but will still be adamant that their opinion should be counted above those that do and the evidence they present.

The uncharitable part of me says well if they really are that stupid then let them be taken advantage of, or even wonders what worthless Audiophile trinket I could release to take their money.

Just a question. Have you never heard a difference between digital cables and switches? I ask that in earnest because it’s hard to fathom such a mass delusion. I’m not talking about assuming one cable or switch ‘sounds better’ because it’s more expensive or it looks fancier or has better add copy. I’m talking about just sitting at home and changing things around and hearing differences. Presumably this does happen. Presumably there are difference. I am honestly interested in where those differences come from. I have heard those differences but it didn’t result in any purchases or justifications for things already purchased. I just auditioned a bunch of stuff to see what it was all about. And there were differences. I guess I would have to ship you guys everything I auditioned for you to measure and explain why there are differences in sound. The conundrum is when there are differences in sound but no differences in measurements. What do we do then? Your guys’ answer is to say the hearing is wrong. What if the machines aren’t the right machines? I’m not trying to be provocative. Asking honestly as I try to decide on digital equipment. Oh and by the way I have no idea who Andre is? Do I sound like him or something?

 

[dincus]

Best practice is charging the card when product ships. It is what it is.

You guys are actually misinformed here. Customers wanted to put their money down in order to get in the queue. Company was very reluctant and has a policy about how long in advance they accept payment. Seems few of you have ever run a small business also - with the digs here and about their honlme workshop. Both of which are irrelevant to your claims about their product. You do yourselves a disservice with this line of attack. Stick with what you know. You have a compelling argument with the measurements

 

[Wes]

those differences supposedly come from noise injection into the DAC - wired Ethernet has transformers so not much noise will get thru; optical solves the 'problem' entirely

also, you can put pool noodles around the optical fiber so it looks real "Audiophile" with "Style"

 

[Audiocrusader]

@amirm
This whole episode with the Uptone EtherREGEN has occupied far too much of your time and here - as it used to be said , far too many 'column inches' as well.

You have exposed this fraud for what it is.

At this point, a moderator should permanently close this thread and we move on.

You obviously don't realize that it's reviews like this that bring Amir the most pleasure. The last thing he wants to do is put an end to the negative publicity. The more posts, the more views.

 

[amirm]

You guys are actually misinformed here. Customers wanted to put their money down in order to get in the queue. Company was very reluctant and has a policy about how long in advance they accept payment. Seems few of you have ever run a small business also - with the digs here and about their honlme workshop. Both of which are irrelevant to your claims about their product. You do yourselves a disservice with this line of attack. Stick with what you know. You have a compelling argument with the measurements

Part of the schtick for UpTone is who they are and how they go about their business. Why else would they detail that on forum and on their website? Once there, then critiquing that kind of guerilla marketing is fair game. Hardly anyone would buy their products or hand them money so far in advance as you say without these stories, personalities, etc.

Sounds like you don't know how "business" is done here. You can start by the fact that they have a paid subforum on AS and worse, with moderator rights to delete posts, move them, etc. That is the modern way small companies scale these days. Use what looks like a neutral third-party forum to advocate your bits, hope most people don't look behind the curtain as they do google searches and land on one these stories, product praises, etc.

You are no stranger to this kind of marketing so putting on a different face here is odd Andre.

 

[dincus]

Is there an apparatus on the market that allows me to listen with a measuring machine? I mean this sincerely. ls there something that translates sound waves into neurological impulses directly? That would be cool. Then I could bypass my ears completely, since they can’t be trusted. I assume I can trust my brain still, right? Just the part that reads measurement machines not the auditory cortex. I think someone here should come up with that kind of implant - then only the best measuring devices would bring the most enjoyment and we will have successfully taken the hopelessly fallable human element out if it. Waiting for the day.

 

[March Audio]

Time to play devil's advocate for a moment and risk blowback from the MRA crowd here:

What's the difference between what Matrix Audio and Uptone Audio are really doing?

By many people's point of view here, the $3,000 Matrix DAC with the sub-human noise floor should be indistinguishable from the $100 one that still has a noise floor well below audibility. Is the Matrix DAC "snake oil" since it provides the same function as the $100 Topping DAC?

Uptone Audio has built a network switch to spec with what they feel are superior quality parts to an off the shelf switch, and measurements show it to function exactly the same as the cheapo. If the low noise floor measurements Amir gushes over on his lab equipment don't amount to a hill of beans in actual listening, why is one considered "snake oil" and the other the talk of the town around here?

Big.

One does what it claims to do and is not deliberately misleading. The other is the the converse.

 

[Jinjuku]

Was there a computer between ER and DAC on the test you did, Amir?

Why would it matter? Their own marketing speak specifies computer/streamer/renderer

 

[Jinjuku]

Then I could bypass my ears completely, since they can’t be trusted.

Your ears I trust 100%. It's the rest of you I find suspect

 

[amirm]

You obviously don't realize that it's reviews like this that bring Amir the most pleasure. The last thing he wants to do is put an end to the negative publicity. The more posts, the more views.

Pleasure, no? There is no advertising here so views don't amount to anything.

However, it is a truism that when people discover such threads and then stay to see more of what else we do, it helps us grow and with it, represent a larger body of knowledge.

To the extent we introduce people to proper science, we are also doing some good. Folks like yourself with no value for it, notwithstanding.

 

[LTig]

Just a question. Have you never heard a difference between digital cables and switches? I ask that in earnest because it’s hard to fathom such a mass delusion. I’m not talking about assuming one cable or switch ‘sounds better’ because it’s more expensive or it looks fancier or has better add copy. I’m talking about just sitting at home and changing things around and hearing differences.

I did, see here. Made a fool of myself though

Presumably this does happen. Presumably there are difference. I am honestly interested in where those differences come from. I have heard those differences but it didn’t result in any purchases or justifications for things already purchased. I just auditioned a bunch of stuff to see what it was all about. And there were differences. I guess I would have to ship you guys everything I auditioned for you to measure and explain why there are differences in sound. The conundrum is when there are differences in sound but no differences in measurements. What do we do then?

Of course there are differences, especially in analog components. Even a DAC has analog components. If a difference can be heard it can be measured.

The opposite however is not always true. If the measurements show that differences are not audible under any circumstances (e.g. SINAD > 120 dB) they cannot be heard. If people still can differ between two components with inaudible differences then they use other means than the ears to get to this conclusion: eyes, knowing the unit, knowing its price, liking its looks, ... you name it.

Your guys’ answer is to say the hearing is wrong. What if the machines aren’t the right machines? I’m not trying to be provocative. Asking honestly as I try to decide on digital equipment. Oh and by the way I have no idea who Andre is? Do I sound like him or something?

It's not the ears which fool us - it's the brain. In some respects the combination of two ears and a brain leads to incredible results (e.g. suppression of comb filtering due to reflections in room - just compare how a mono recording in your own room with the microphone at the position of your head sounds via headphone compared to live), but in other respects a lot of information from the ears gets lost or is suppressed by the brain or is just not accurate enough. Actually that's the reason why lossy data reduction (MP3, ...) works in the first place.