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RME dac filter for competitive gaming

ShiZo

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Should I be using the minimum phase filter for gaming for faster response time?

All my other gear is built for speed but the linear sharp filter seems like it is better for the sound, but bad for delay in response time of the sound.
 
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PaulD

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What, exactly, is the latency difference between the filters? I'm pretty sure it will be less than your perception time (let alone reaction time)...
 
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ShiZo

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Believe it or not there is a significant delay with a linear filter compared to minimum. That's why linear filters are considered more accurate to the music. it makes sure the frequencies hit you in the exact time they are supposed to by using slight delay. Minimum doesn't do that.
 

amirm

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Here is a bit from AKM on their filters:

1571869267902.png


The slow roll off has fewer taps and hence, has lower latency.
 
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ShiZo

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The short delay are the minimum filters right? The linear ones don't have a /fs. But that's probably because the SD's are good on latency. If that's the case, is there anything that can have the minimum filter mess with imaging/sound placement?

You don't want to use a slow filter, even a fast one in gaming because different types of footsteps are in the higher frequencies.
 

mansr

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Here is a bit from AKM on their filters:

View attachment 36778

The slow roll off has fewer taps and hence, has lower latency.
5 vs 6 samples isn't the issue. The linear phase filters probably have a latency of 50 samples or so, the quoted bit doesn't say. At 48 kHz, that's a difference of about a millisecond. Although that's a lot less than human reaction time, if two people are reacting to the same event, whoever has lower latency, even a little, will still have a slight advantage.
 

PaulD

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Believe it or not there is a significant delay with a linear filter compared to minimum. That's why linear filters are considered more accurate to the music. it makes sure the frequencies hit you in the exact time they are supposed to by using slight delay. Minimum doesn't do that.
Yes, but what is the delay, what is the measurement or spec in mS? 100mS will make a difference to gaming, but 5mS will not...
 
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ShiZo

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All my gear has a 1ms response time. My keyboard, mouse, monitor, ect.
 

JohnYang1997

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All my gear has a 1ms response time. My keyboard, mouse, monitor, ect.
No. Your monitor doesn't. They have at least 6ms (16ms more realistic)of delay. Watch some reviews from hardware unboxed to grasp some idea of how that works.
But sure mouse and keyboard should have much lower latency.
Issue in sound is not the filter. Filters make no difference. The largest delay comes from Windows audio mixer. They do the src and doesn't use low buffer. You would expect tens of milliseconds of delay just to start with. Using high sampling rate may give you better delay assuming the buffer size is the same. I'm not sure whether they change or not. But play with it. If you do see performance increase then yes. If no why bother with someone that doesn't do for you.
 

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No. Your monitor doesn't. They have at least 6ms (16ms more realistic)of delay. Watch some reviews from hardware unboxed to grasp some idea of how that works.
But sure mouse and keyboard should have much lower latency.
Issue in sound is not the filter. Filters make no difference. The largest delay comes from Windows audio mixer. They do the src and doesn't use low buffer. You would expect tens of milliseconds of delay just to start with. Using high sampling rate may give you better delay assuming the buffer size is the same. I'm not sure whether they change or not. But play with it. If you do see performance increase then yes. If no why bother with someone that doesn't do for you.
A bit off topic, from what I know, a monitor can actually goes down to around 3-4 ms in some specific scenario and 1ms latency is pretty much all BS in term of monitor. The thing is, it is controversial duo to its nature (no true scientific research around it).
Anyway, back to the topic.
 

JohnYang1997

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A bit off topic, from what I know, a monitor can actually goes down to around 3-4 ms in some specific scenario and 1ms latency is pretty much all BS in term of monitor. The thing is, it is controversial duo to its nature (no true scientific research around it).
Anyway, back to the topic.
There is different between delay(start to change)and response time(smearing)itself. The total number is what really matters.
 

RayDunzl

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Yes, but what is the delay, what is the measurement or spec in mS? 100mS will make a difference to gaming, but 5mS will not...

Sample times, I think...

Wiki: "Then by definition the sampling rate fs= no of samples/ sampling time. "

So 6fs at 48khz = 1/8000 second.

"The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus."

Of course, the DAC surely has other places it can create delay beyond just the filter...
 
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JohnYang1997

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Sample times, I think...

Wiki: "Then by definition the sampling rate fs= no of samples/ sampling time. "

So 6fs at 48khz = 1/8000 second.

"The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus."

Of course, the DAC surely has other places it can create delay beyond just the filter...
These reaction times are irrelevant to the performance of competitive gaming.
 

RayDunzl

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These reaction times are irrelevant to the performance of competitive gaming.

Sorry, I must have overstepped my bounds, commenting in such a way that could be construed as applicable to competitive gaming, an activity with which I have neither experience nor interest.

*lobs yet another demerit at the collection plate
 
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ShiZo

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I have tested .15 to visually react and press a button. I've gotten faster, but that's pretty much my average.

https://www.humanbenchmark.com

try it out.

My monitor is 1ms for real though. Real world I think i do get 3ms in overwatch though. So to get your monitor to run 1ms real world isn't possible.
 

mkawa

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yes, really. competitive gamers at the highest level have ungodly coordination and response times. this is a bit like quoting average 100m sprints for the average person and then applying that reasoning to an olympic runner.

isn't a brickwall filter going to have the lowest latency? am i missing something dumb?

it's a good thing that during OWL off-season, the only thing you need response times for is hitting 'f5' over and over again. hah!
 
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JohnYang1997

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I have a tested .15 visual reaction time believe it or not.
5ms is around the time people can start to feel/ not feel a delay. This number is coming from the guitarists that were using digital processing effects, musicians using monitoring with effects plugins, and many people who work in pro audio scene. It generally holds true for gaming as well.
 

JohnYang1997

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yes, really. competitive gamers at the highest level have ungodly coordination and response times. this is a bit like quoting average 100m sprints for the average person and then applying that reasoning to an olympic runner.

isn't a brickwall filter going to have the lowest latency? am i missing something dumb?
That depends on implementation. There is no such thing as "brick wall" filter. They are actually all trying to be brickwall filters. To perform brickwall low pass you need infinitely long sinc as impulse response. Shorter the impulse response, shorter the delay. Transfer to the taps(order), lower order = faster. It's also true that minimum phase generally much is faster because all sound line up at the start of the impulse, the peak in time domain is around the starting point. Then with linear phase filter, you have to wait for half of the impulse response to get to the peak.
These two aspects lead to the final delay for the filter.

However filter delay is not so important. Digital nterface, driver will have higher delay measured in single digital milliseconds. But this is using ASIO with fine tuned buffer size.
With Windows audio it's going to be tens if not over 100ms delay going through the driver. So this is the main bottleneck in the condition of competitive gaming.
 

mkawa

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custom drivers can significantly lower the response time. if you can dma and perform as few syscalls as possible (this is your biggest cost once you bypass the mixer stack), you can get down to a handful of ms. asio through the thesycon drivers claims on the order of 1-5ms at lowest buffer size.
 
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