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JBL L100 Reissue - $4000

digicidal

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$5000 seems a lot to spend for a "novelty speaker", especially when you can have genuine novelty in the form of legit old speakers for far less.

Exactly. Coupled with the fact that for $5K you can choose from a number of remarkable modern designs which are significant improvements in the area of accuracy and transparency. So it begs the question... are speakers a piece of art/furniture where retro design is paramount - or are they merely tools for reproducing recorded sound? If it is indeed the former - then restoring an authentic version should be even better, and you'll save the environment from one more piece of garbage while you're at it!
 

anmpr1

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$5000 seems a lot to spend for a "novelty speaker", especially when you can have genuine novelty in the form of legit old speakers for far less.
When I began my audiophile trek I kept my original L100s. For some reason I boxed them up and carried them around with me. In the box. Since then I've gone through all kinds... vented box, acoustic suspension, electrostatic, horns. With my new house I have room for a second 'main' system, and took out the JBLs, refurbed and paired them with some hand built Dyna toobs. So whenever I get that craving for how it was back in the day, I can deal with the real thing. The only thing that's missing is waffle patterned foam, replaced by orange cloth.

I still believe that with speakers just get whatever you like, and whatever you can afford. And demand an in home trial, whatever you do. And be prepared to buy your wife something special to get her to put up with your new towers.
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

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Why does JBL not bother flush-mounting the midrange drivers?

dz01NjAmaD03NTM=_src_56365-jbl-l100-classic-audiocompl-fot2.jpg


dz01NjAmaD00MzY=_src_56072-jbl-4307-audiocompl-fot11.jpg
 

Vintage57

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Cost?
 

invaderzim

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$5000 seems a lot to spend for a "novelty speaker", especially when you can have genuine novelty in the form of legit old speakers for far less.

While I do agree I think a lot of audio items are priced for the crowd that doesn't think that is a lot to spend for anything.
 

Vintage57

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Possibly the front panel would need to be reinforced if the drivers were flush mounted..just thinking out loud.
 

FrantzM

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Possibly the front panel would need to be reinforced if the drivers were flush mounted..just thinking out loud.
At that price, the drivers should be flush-mounted and if needed the front-panel , reinforced...


Start of RANT :mad:
JBL needs to pull their brains from their (you know where :() JBL has its product line-up all over the place, If there is a name that is mistreated, pilfered, badgered, tramped ... its JBL; From bad sounding bluetooth speakers to the superlative M2 passing with poorly known but solid speakers such as the Studio 5 series ( 530, 580, 590, etc... ) which are the real deal sounding way above their weight class .. or the LSR or ... They all carry the JBL name and logo There are several genuine gems but the amount of work needed to land on them is incredible ... If there is an example of a company with a marketing and branding strategy that aims at destroying the company.... it is JBL .. Let's not talk about their world distribution which is simply BAD .. Hope someone at Harman is reading this .. Not too many times has a company with such a glorious name and the level of research and high quality products ... seemed to be doing everything to destroy itself ... end of rant ... :mad:
 
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Wombat

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Small time alignment tweak?
 

headshake

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solid speakers such as the Studio 5 series ( 530, 580, 590, etc... )
The 5 series was pre-samsung. JBL let go of the designer soon after. A few words from Greg Timbers:

JBL (Harman Luxury) laid off 3 more employees yesterday. Their seniority totaled over 70 years. The big hit was Jerry Moro. Jerry’s work is legendary and his transducers have been featured in most of my designs for years. He also has done transducers for Revel, JBL automotive product, [and] some really fine subs used by Synthesis and JBL Pro just to name a few of his many, many accomplishments over the years. His latest products, not yet to market, are a pair of stunning in-wall systems using a compression driver and horn. They still fit into a standard 4″ wall. I worked with him on these products a bit before my demise. They are absolutely outstanding.

So this brings an end to any world class engineers at JBL. Jerry and I were the last two. There are only 3 guys left, and although they are competent, they are no where near the knowledge, success or capability of what they just dumped. The senior Model maker left last week to go elsewhere, which means that Consumer no longer has any model making capabilities, either.

It appears that this is the end for JBL as we have known it. The Lab equipment is in total disarray with much of it not working properly. If it weren’t for [JBL] Professional’s need for, and use of the lab, I doubt that it would function at all. There will be no more internal transducer development, no world class engineers, no more internal model making capabilities and no more real JBL product. It is just going to be me-too product copied from somebody else and designed and manufactured in China or equivalent.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/people/timbers.htm

Jerry Moro- he only worked on a few things (sarcasm):

JBL transducer models (and systems): 1501AL-2 (Everest DD67000), 1501AL-1, 045Mg (Everest DD65000), 100FE-12, 139Nd (S3900), 2216Nd (S4700 and JBL Pro M2), 540J, 553H, 553J, 565J, 580J, 5110G, 5120G (Studio 5 series), 1501FE (4365), 2213Nd-2, 105H-1, 054ALMg (4312E), 2213Nd-1, 105H-2, 054ALMg-1 (4319), 1500AL-1, 476Mg (K2 S9900), TS6H, TS6J, TS8J (TS Series systems), LE14H-4 (S4600), 1501AL, 476Be (Everest DD66000), Synthesis 6 (Synthesis SAM3VA and SAM3HA), Synthesis 8 (Synthesis SAM2LF), W1500H (HB5000, 1500 Array Subs), Array 8, Array 8C and Array 10, 175Nd-3 (Array Series), 1500FE (4338 and 4348), 2213Nd, 105H (4312D and 4318), 1200FE-8 (4428 and 4429), 1200FE-12 (K2 S5800), 1500AL (K2 S9800), LE14H-3 (Performance Series PS1400, Array 1400), 1200H (4425MKII), Studio10, Studio8, ME60JS, ME50JS (SVA Series systems), Century1200, Century500 (Century Gold), 726GS (Synthesis Two).

Anywho,,, i look at the 5 series as the last throw before the end of an era. It looks like JBL is still making them too,
 

Xulonn

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About the Yamaha Ns-1000M

Floyd Toole had this to say in his book “They exhibited the lowest non-linear distortion of any consumer loudspeaker I had tested up to that point”. Circa 1974.

Yamaha NS-1000M.jpeg

Although this thread is about the JBL L100, the Yamaha NS-1000m was a competitor of the original L100 in the 1970's. I didn't realize it at the time, but the Yamaha's were probably better speakers than even my big 1976 custom-made JBL's - a pair 16 cu.ft. bass reflex cubes with the JBL S8 drivers (LE15a woofer, 375 Horn Midrange, and 075 Ring-radiator tweeter.)

In 2009, Stereophile re-published J. Gordon Holt's 1976 review of the NS-1000M speakers. I'll give him credit for recognizing subjective bias among audiophiles, but I am curious if any of you remember Stereophile as being more objective in those days.

According to the Gordon Holt review, Yamaha NS-1000M speakers were the first to use beryllium-dome drivers. Apparently the extreme prejudice against any kind of metallic speaker drivers in those days prevented the acceptance of those Yamaha's by the high-end community of the day.

And now, in the 2010's, highly-regarded audiophile loudspeakers like the $22,000/pair Revel Salon 2 use a beryllium dome tweeter, inverted titanium-dome mid-range driver, titanium-cone mid-bass driver, and three 8" aluminum-cone woofers.

The Japanese Yamaha firm, better known for its successes in motorcycle design than in audio design, has managed to score a First in audio by devising a way of producing speaker domes of beryllium, by depositing the metal on a suitably shaped form and building it up to the requisite thickness by a process similar to that used for laying down the surface of a disc stamper on an acetate (poly-vinyl chloride, actually) master disc.

It appears, though, that Yamaha may have a tough job of selling their 1000 speakers to buyers, for everyone knows that metal cones sound metallic, and since the speakers are sold without grille cloth covers—the drivers are visible through wire-mesh covers—there is no concealing the fact that the mid- and upper-range drivers on the 1000 are metal. Thus, most audiophiles who have listened to our review pairs of NS-1000s have claimed to hear the metallic quality of those speakers. Interestingly, though, when some of them heard the same speakers, after having been told that other speakers standing next to them were operating, they no longer heard the metallic sound and were quite enthusiastic about what they heard. Strange, what a prejudice can do...
 

anmpr1

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Although this thread is about the JBL L100, the Yamaha NS-1000m was a competitor of the original L100 in the 1970's.

...but I am curious if any of you remember Stereophile as being more objective in those days.

According to the Gordon Holt review, Yamaha NS-1000M speakers were the first to use beryllium-dome drivers. Apparently the extreme prejudice against any kind of metallic speaker drivers in those days prevented the acceptance of those Yamaha's by the high-end community of the day.
1) Stereophile under Holt was not really 'objective' oriented, but could come across that way inasmuch as Gordon was not a tweako goofball. He did try and understand technical arguments, and consider them. He was easy to read, and from everything I gather possessed a rather decent personality, unlike some of the more rabid 'high end' so-called journalists out there, such as well known analog turntable guy, who writes for some of the subjectivist mags from time to time. Holt attempted variable 'controls' into his listening reports. He attempted to standardize things. From a publishing standpoint, the 'problem' with his operation was that it was essentially a one man show, and there was only so much one man with limited finances could do. Current Stereophile has measurements, the best part of the Website, but they seem to be more of an addition. One really thinks they are happier printing what guy and wife think about an expensive SET amplifier or cable, than making gear measurements.

2) I don't think the NS was a direct competitor to the L100, which was marketed as a home speaker. The Yamaha was more expensive, and back then a lot of people just wouldn't consider a Japanese speaker. I don't recall cross shopping the two. First, I don't recall a Yamaha dealer in my area (whereas JBL had a marked presence), and second, its retail price would have precluded my purse. I understand it was designed for pro work? In the context of a monitor speaker with a 'bookshelf' form factor I guess it could have been a competitor to the JBL 43xx series. I don't know the sales and market stats from those days.

3) The beryllium thing is a question mark for me. Perhaps someone knows how it is used safely? I know Shure claims they stopped using the metal in cantilevers due to its toxic properties. I think this would be in the manufacturing process. Once formed and deposited on the membrane, how could a tweeter poison anyone? For a subjectivist tweako reviewer it might 'poison' the sound... that sort of thing. LOL

Getting back to Gordon and his publication. In those days the only mainstream publication that did a first rate job with loudspeakers was Audio, Richard Heyser's reviews. And they begain in the mid to late '70s. A lot later than Holt. For example, Julian Hirsch could say that wildly different speakers as the Bose 901, JBL L100, and AR 3a were 'good' speakers. Such a statement could only be made with specific, really very narrow reservations, along with criticisms that Stereo Review (or High Fidelity) could (or would) not make. But Gordon Holt could and did. If you wanted to buy an FM tuner the mainstream mags were good sources. If you wanted a speaker, Audio was the place to go, but you first had to be able to figure out what Heyser was showing you in his measurements. Or, you could read Gordon Holt, who would pretty accurately tell you how it sounded in his living room. Finally, one must consider what gear was reviewed, maybe even more so than what was not. I don't think Audio ever reviewed the L100, which probably tells you more about their view of the speaker than it would if they had offered a review. Or maybe it was just ad dollars making the call.
 

Frank Dernie

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Although this thread is about the JBL L100, the Yamaha NS-1000m was a competitor of the original L100 in the 1970's. I didn't realize it at the time, but the Yamaha's were probably better speakers than even my big 1976 custom-made JBL's - a pair 16 cu.ft. bass reflex cubes with the JBL S8 drivers (LE15a woofer, 375 Horn Midrange, and 075 Ring-radiator tweeter.)

In 2009, Stereophile re-published J. Gordon Holt's 1976 review of the NS-1000M speakers. I'll give him credit for recognizing subjective bias among audiophiles, but I am curious if any of you remember Stereophile as being more objective in those days.

According to the Gordon Holt review, Yamaha NS-1000M speakers were the first to use beryllium-dome drivers. Apparently the extreme prejudice against any kind of metallic speaker drivers in those days prevented the acceptance of those Yamaha's by the high-end community of the day.

And now, in the 2010's, highly-regarded audiophile loudspeakers like the $22,000/pair Revel Salon 2 use a beryllium dome tweeter, inverted titanium-dome mid-range driver, titanium-cone mid-bass driver, and three 8" aluminum-cone woofers.
Metal domes are the only ones which have any chance at having no breakup in their pass-band. The trouble is, when they do break up it is very pronounced.
Doped cones and plastic ones always have break up in their pass band, it is just a question of how bad, how well damped and how much distortion it adds.
The specific stiffness of a metal is what mainly counts when it comes to breakup since most metals have the same specific stiffness a dome of magnesium, aluminium, titanium and even steel will have the same weight at almost the same stiffness (the lighter materials have a slight advantage in that the same weight piece will be thicker which will stiffen most modes) and an anodised surface adds a stiff skin.
Berillium and Boron both have unusually high specific stiffness so this does not apply, making them better suited to things like speakers and cantilevers than other metals.
Berillium is dangerous if it catches fire or gives off vapour, so dangerous to manufacture with, and few places are licensed to do so. Boron is easy to make rods but not domes (iirc).
Using sophisticated crossovers to avoid exciting resonance means maybe a speaker can be made without any of the drivers operating in breakup at all in their pass band.
There may even be one or two already, possibly including the NS1000M and a few others.
 

Sal1950

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Using sophisticated crossovers to avoid exciting resonance means maybe a speaker can be made without any of the drivers operating in breakup at all in their pass band.
Doesn't horn loading lower the drivers excursion for a desired SPL and hence move up the level at which breakup occurs?
All other things being equal of course.
 

Frank Dernie

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Doesn't horn loading lower the drivers excursion for a desired SPL and hence move up the level at which breakup occurs?
All other things being equal of course.
No. Break up is frequency not level dependant.
Horn loading does reduce excursion so the non-linear nature of the suspension means less distortion though horn resosnances make the waterfall measurements I have seen of horns look pretty disappointing.
There are measurements of mine in this (French) review and the waterfall decay is S-L-O-W.

https://www.tuneaudio.com/wp-conten...-in-French-Stereo-PRESTIGE-IMAGE-Magazine.pdf
 

Juhazi

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Loudspeaker membrane resonances evoke already at low spl. It is actually surprising how the response curve stays the same despite of spl. Because it is so high in spl, it gets masked from hearing at low spl (Fletcher-Munson curve).

This alu-SEAS has almost 20dB peak at 26kHz, but how often do we have signal that high, and who claims to hear it? Be domes peak at 30-40kHz.
F_Seas_Prestige_loudspeaker_tweeter_H1825-06_27TAC_GB.jpg


With tweeters, I think that "metal dome sound" is a myth, but of course there are some really bad models. Midrange and woofer drivers are much more difficult and critical in this respect.

 

Frank Dernie

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With tweeters, I think that "metal dome sound" is a myth, but of course there are some really bad models. Midrange and woofer drivers are much more difficult and critical in this respect.
I completely agree. The harshness people complain about is in the frequency region where the mid unit is breaking up and can't be anything to do with tweeter material at all.
 

Sal1950

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With tweeters, I think that "metal dome sound" is a myth,
But then what else would subjective reviewers have to write about? ;)
 
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