Review and Measurements of Totaldac d1-six DAC

[amirm]

I am Vincent, owner of Totaldac.

Welcome to the forum. Participation in the community of your customers and potential customers always raises the status of the company in my eyes.

Thank you for trying to prove that Totaldac graph is correct, and I am sorry that you failed in this task.

Failed? There was no failure. I showed that our two measurements basically show the same results, therefore the d1-six that I measured can't possibly be broken.

Set your generator to 96KHz and optimise better your ground/earth. In the DAC menu you can connect or disconnect the ground from the loop.
Try also RCA output.

Optimize my grounding? Use RCA? Disconnect ground? What is the purpose of the balanced interconnect if it is not to eliminate such vagaries?

Regardless, I only noted the mains leakage/harmonics because it made my measurements different looking than yours. Otherwise, they are not an audible concern or the main fault with your product.

About the vertical axis, I sent a -120dBFs signal, so the signal that you see on my graph is -120dBFs (-120dB compared to the maximum voltage to the DAC), just understand the vertical axis accordingly, it is just dBs.

I did. It is just odd to have the vertical scale be in units of digital measure, as opposed to analog voltage from the DAC. Regardless, as I noted again above, there is nothing material here.

What is material is that you tested with an unrealistic low level of -120 dBFS. Where did you get this method? AES-17 standard calls for -60 dB, not -120 dB. And that is for dynamic range measurements. Standard measurements of distortion call for 0 dBFS (or thereabouts), not -120 dB which is at the limit of a 20 bit signal. By using such small signal, you made sure that the harmonic distortion was buried in the noise, causing confusion which I addressed my repeat of your measurement.

Again, welcome to the forum.

 

[diegooo1972]

I'd like to have a scientific reason regarding to use only -120db dBFS in measurement.

 

[amirm]

I have 3 audio anaylsers. The measurement given on the web site was made by a custom analyser.
I have also a HP 8903A and an AudioPrecesion SYS-2722.

I can only go by what you posted on your website which was not a standard, industry analyzer. Now that you say you have proper analyzers, what do you measure with them? And why are those measurements hidden from your potential customers?

You say "Without a good analyzer like mine...". Yes congrats, but the way of using it is also important.

It is. And I make sure I don't use them to cheat and show misleading information like you did in graph where half of it was chopped off, no condition of testing such as sample rate was shown, and was "a custom" analyzer with who knows what characteristics.

And oh, I don't play around with grounding with my lab setup to eliminate ground loops on balanced interconnects lest you tell me your customers do the same thing.

You want to show that you know how to use an analyzer, demonstrate it by posting proper measurements. Plenty of your competitors do. Download the manuals from Benchmark, RME, etc.

You have demonstrated none of that in this post.

Anyway, instead of protests, I hope your next post is THD+N spectrum of a 1 kHz tone as I have used in my testing. That would put to rest if my unit is broken, I don't know what I am doing, etc. accusations.

 

[amirm]

I'd like to have a scientific reason regarding to use only -120db dBFS in measurement.

I have only seen that method used to claim a marketing point of: "look, we can resolve a -120 dBF signal." My linearity test showed that the d1-six can do that. Problem is, just about any DAC I test can do that too as you see in perfect linearity tests in DACs costing just a hundred or two hundred dollars.

I have not seen anyone use this method to simply demonstrate the noise floor as the "FFT gain" substantially and artificially reduces the noise floor to all but the most learned signal processing/measurement folks. The FFT gain can be as much 30 to 40 dB!

 

[Purité Audio]

Thank goodness ASR exists, it is a beacon of light in a sea of shit.
Keith

 

[amirm]

With a little help from my friends or a call to daddy

https://www.facebook.com/699087340435315/posts/960635367613843

Here is the youtube version:

It is a funny and sarcastic video that likely is created as a call by TotalDAC. I get it. Sadly what is there is also the value of subjective reviews Michael does. Worthless words masquerading as real data and analysis of the sound of a DAC.

 

[diegooo1972]

@amirm
That's exactly what I mean.
Looking for -120dBFS audio analysis in google simply give no results about this kind of test.

 

[cjfrbw]

Without ten thousand dollar cables, this review is null and void.

 

[maty]

I just read other reviews made by amirm of R2R DACs (Schiit Bitfrost Multibit and Audio-GD R2R11) and I think the Totaldac d1-six DAC is not broken, just measure like that.

My two cents: if someone wants a predominant H2 harmonic profile to be a better and cheaper idea have a clean SS preamp (Single Ended) with this profile and a clean / very clean modern DAC.

 

[daftcombo]

I am not discovering the debate between perception and measures. By education, I even got a post doc in maths ... some times ago. I am not listening having in mind to remind the price in € or $ of the DAC. I am listening to the music. There are some CDs I am listening all the time, and I am used to them some since 20 years: the music itself, the rythm, the instruments, where are they, the « color » of the voices, the emotions etc. When I move from system A to system B for these records, I can feel if something is different, if I am hearing new things, less things etc. So no science, but neither based on a one time listening.
As this forum is fully centered on measures (and I like it very much for that), I was just sharing my personal experience based on hours of listening. And I am hearing more from TotalDac or get more emotions from it, than from Chord H2, and a bit more than from RME ADI2. I like them all, I bought them all so my perception is not based on a one time listening.
Nevertheless, I trust the seriousness of Amir and the measures of TotalDac are a shame for the product. It doesn’t align with what I hear but at the end, who cares ; -)

That a lot of music sounds better with TotalDAC, Audio-GD or any NOS DAC, it is very possible. On the contrary, I read all the time that RME DACs are boring, and so studio monitors, solid state amps, etc.
But remember that you can add effects to your music with any free DSP.

 

[luisma]

You're on your way... Amir has posted a ton of research references that I have been wading through as I have various questions or find threads of interest that I just don't have the knowledge to fully understand. That's the thing about ignorance...it is easily remedied. Unless, it is a determined ignorance...then, there's not much anyone can do. If you are in the cult, it's hard to admit that all those amazing differences amounted to absolutely understandable psychoaustic effects, and once you simply can't peek, the differences so clearly, obviously blatantly in your face just a moment ago are suddenly gone. It really is magic what our brains can do, but it isn't magic what DAC designers do. At least they shouldn't be claiming it is. Competence in this regard can come pretty cheap. Features can be added as needed/wanted, but the basics have been covered for a long long time. I cannot tell the difference between my 15+ year old 7.1 Krell Preamp/Processor with 24/192 burr brown dac chips (one for each channel) and the D70. For those who would like to tell me it's because I don't know how to listen, you are welcome to come prove me wrong.

I returned an Auralic Vega about a year ago after coming across this site, and learning how to actually evaluate things in a way that prevented me from fooling myself, and I was shocked that I just couldn't tell a difference. I returned the Auralic, and bought some LS50's with the difference in $$$ between that and the D70 that I'm now enjoying in my office.

It was very free-ing...

Keep reading...the truth shall set you free.

I love well made things, and have no problem spending what I need to get them...but there's a lot of Schiit out there...gotta be careful.

I think you just stated one of the most coherent statements that you can find on any site

 

[Silvera]

Analyzers can now use millions of points for FFT, and with it, show (artificially) extremely low noise floors.

Artificially?

 

[luisma]

@FredYves
It's not easy to believe you had problems with all Topping products while hundred others in the forum didn't.

It all depends on perception, let me give you an analogy.

I'm trying to make some sense here, I have nothing against your comment just my own opinion.

Let's start with "we are all different" would you agree? you may like going to the beach, or maybe you would like going to the mountains. Everyone has their own preference and likes.

For the record this has nothing to do with the DAC in question so technically this is OFF THREAD OT

My wife, she's 6 years younger than me and she looks even younger, I'm almost 50, bald, little overweight, and I have a thing for music that sometimes she gets tired off. She is something beautiful, she can have any other guy out there, she constantly gets 20 year old guys checking her out, paying for her gas at the gas station, yes freaky I know it has happened. She is always with me, infatuated, (for those of you thinking she is going around the block with other guys she is not), beside the point, what she sees on me I don't know because I don't have money nor I'm a wealthy person. Why does she have that preference I have no idea but it is the same thing with audio, we may have a preference for something "our brain" tell us it is the right thing and for that moment it is.

I'm not debating the Topping product (I am not an owner myself or haven't heard it) (I'm pretty sure it is great that's not the point of my answer)

All I'm saying like I have done before some people have some preferences and that is right for them.

Go tell my wife she is with the wrong guy, I'm sure what the answer will be.

Those of you getting cheeky with jokes and all that about her please save it for some serious post.

for the record like I stated before I love facts and this site, not the mob attitude or pitchforks

P.S. A friend of mine makes speakers, he built (years ago) a completely flat response speaker / crossover, it did not sound good to him or most people. Was it neutral yes it was, did people like it not they didn't. Scientifically you can test it and confirm it is the flattest response (on anenoich chamber) speaker ever, would you like the sound, well you may but most likely you will not.

I don't use EQ products on my system BUT why the whole industry traditionally introduced these 50 years ago ? because of preference, I have a friend that when I go to this house and he plays Deep Purple with a heavy treble EQ I want to leave but it is what he likes, who am I to question ? That is my point, we can separate OBJECTIVE measuring and listening from subjective, even AMIR @amirm has it on his reviews, the only thing as he has stated before he is "TRAINED" and with all due respect @amirm I appreciate your transparency I just hope that when you provide "SUBJECTIVE LISTENING" you are actually "switching off" your training before commenting (like I am sure you do but just mentioning)

 

[q3cpma]

You know, "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is just an opinion turned Truth(tm) because it sounds goods. I prefer going with "there's bad and good stuff and corresponding bad and good taste", personally (which is different from claiming to know what good and bad actually is).

 

[diegooo1972]

Won't discuss taste. I have mine.
The problem with high end audio is that they introduced taste long time ago masquerading it for scientific facts.
Fulfilling the market with snake oil attitude and false science facts.
Every engineer agree with that.
Except for those that sell snake oil products and their army of pandering reviewers.
People can choose whatever they want.
But I'm not going to excuse snake oil high end audio that sell unscientific facts pretending to act as engineers.

 

[luisma]

You know, "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is just an opinion turned Truth(tm) because it sounds goods. I prefer going with "there's bad and good stuff and corresponding bad and good taste", personally (which is different from claiming to know what good and bad actually is).

Agreed, and I share myself your opinion, but some people drink the cool aid and some others perceive different through their ears, who am I to tell them they are wrong.
Let's dither this and extrapolate

for the record this is not OT

do you believe in god? any god, doesn't have to be a specific one of the many , if you say no that explains it, you are 100% objectivist. If you say yes well, we can try to have ASR to test it but I don't think it will yield any results.

 

[luisma]

Won't discuss taste. I have mine.
The problem with high end audio is that they introduced taste long time ago masquerading it for scientific facts.
Fulfilling the market with snake oil attitude and false science facts.
Every engineer agree with that.
Except for those that sell snake oil products and their army of pandering reviewers.
People can choose whatever they want.
But I'm not going to excuse snake oil high end audio that sell unscientific facts pretending to act as engineers.

Only for those who believed them

Every engineer agree with that.

There are different areas here, IME, power cables, don't really make too much of a difference, they do as a matter of fact but hardly noticeable. Power supplies, I was not a believer on these (because of my scientific training) but in some instances not all, they do make a difference. Nor that these improve things completely but it changes the soundstage and EQ and will make it better or worse for you. so again, preference.

But I'm not going to excuse snake oil high end audio that sell unscientific facts pretending to act as engineers.

And yes they are snakes and oil taking advantage of some others I agree and it is sad

 

[FredYves]

That a lot of music sounds better with TotalDAC, Audio-GD or any NOS DAC, it is very possible. On the contrary, I read all the time that RME DACs are boring, and so studio monitors, solid state amps, etc.
But remember that you can add effects to your music with any free DSP.

You may be right that some / many products are adding things which at the end were not « in the record » itself. I have always liked Naim products which are controversial in some forums. But it is what it is, I perceive more dynamic and I have more fun with them.
As I have always used solid state amps, I have no opinion or experience vs tubes.
When it comes to RME ADI2 which I like, it happens that I have spent a full afternoon listening to music with Focal Utopia headphones (using Roon and a list of music I know very well) while reading a book. The experience was nice, music was good, very precise. Then I moved to my Chord Hugo2 and the experience was different, still very precise but such a fun! - I was just enjoying the music better. Same source, same music, same headphones, same day. It was not a blind test, but I didn’t expect it neither and frankly the respective price didn’t come into play contrarily to what some people repeatedly say in that forum.
Then the same music on the TotalDac + Vivid Giya 3, again something else. The same music for sure, but I could almost « see / feel » the musicians because rythm and 3D location are so good. I am sharing it again because it is based on an experience of listening. Is there a bias?maybe. But I am in mathematics by education, and science by profession. Why in my listening be the biais for price be bigger than the one for measurements now that I know the results thanks to Amir and Audioscience? I respect the measures and for sure the outcomes also guide me in acquiring some products (eg RME, Massdrop THX782, JDS Labs O2), but I know as well that I am not listening via an oscilloscope. So measures are not the only element which are important - your personal experience listening to the music and especially records you know is even more important.

 

[diegooo1972]

I believe that a good power supply is needed in some cases.
But from what i saw until now 1mv ripple noise is more then enough.
Going for microvolt with thousands dollars is again crazy.
In every aspect there's always snake oil on top the chain.

 

[luisma]

You may be right that some / many products are adding things which at the end were not « in the record » itself. I have always liked Naim products which are controversial in some forums. But it is what it is, I perceive more dynamic and I have more fun with them.
As I have always used solid state amps, I have no opinion or experience vs tubes.
When it comes to RME ADI2 which I like, it happens that I have spent a full afternoon listening to music with Focal Utopia headphones (using Roon and a list of music I know very well) while reading a book. The experience was nice, music was good, very precise. Then I moved to my Chord Hugo2 and the experience was different, still very precise but such a fun! - I was just enjoying the music better. Same source, same music, same headphones, same day. It was not a blind test, but I didn’t expect it neither and frankly the respective price didn’t come into play contrarily to what some people repeatedly say in that forum.
Then the same music on the TotalDac + Vivid Giya 3, again something else. The same music for sure, but I could almost « see / feel » the musicians because rythm and 3D location are so good. I am sharing it again because it is based on an experience of listening. Is there a bias?maybe. But I am in mathematics by education, and science by profession. Why in my listening be the biais for price be bigger than the one for measurements now that I know the results thanks to Amir and Audioscience? I respect the measures and for sure the outcomes also guide me in acquiring some products (eg RME, Massdrop THX782, JDS Labs O2), but I know as well that I am not listening via an oscilloscope. So measures are not the only element which are important - your personal experience listening to the music and especially records you know is even more important.

Hey Fred, with all due respect and believe me I truly respect your opinion it may be "biased" by the DAC, I actually don't know as I don't have the means to get such DAC, but there is nothing wrong about it and that is my point. Equipment Synergy might be another one.

Ok, let's start from the beginning, which pre amp / amp you have? which speakers?