Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Jim Taylor]

I don’t see any way for this debate to settle without an independent party conducting a large scale test with jointly agreed methods and hypothesis . Everything is a conjecture currently.

No, we don 't need to re-invent the wheel, and "everything is conjecture currently" is false.

It's not conjecture when a doctor who knows more than you do points out a tumor on an x-ray.
It's not conjecture when you say that you're going to shoot yourself in the foot with a 12 ga. shotgun and I say, "That's gonna hurt!"
It's not conjecture to say that you'd die of asphyxiation in outer space, even though you have never visited there.
It's not conjecture to say that magnesium oxidizes under water.

Some things are already known. Some things are not. Don't waste your time (and ours) by not acknowledging what is already known. Instead, investigate what is not known.

And don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Jim

 

[Miguelón]

I don’t see any way for this debate to settle without an independent party conducting a large scale test with jointly agreed methods and hypothesis . Everything is a conjecture currently. Although I don’t doubt that dacs definitely won’t have such a big impact as speakers and room correction.

Although to be honest I believe that many people will fail blind tests even between speakers or/and room correction .

I saw a video on YouTube trying to reproduce a classic study about flat sound preferences (maybe Floyd Toole?).

The youtuber little study didn’t match (Toole?) the older results: participants didn’t consider better the flattest speakers

 

[Jim Taylor]

I saw a video on YouTube trying to reproduce a classic study about flat sound preferences (maybe Floyd Toole?).

The youtuber little study didn’t match (Toole?) the older results: participants didn’t consider better the flattest speakers

What does this have to do with DACs?

Jim

 

[ads_cft222]

No, we don 't need to re-invent the wheel, and "everything is conjecture currently" is false.

It's not conjecture when a doctor who knows more than you do points out a tumor on an x-ray.
It's not conjecture when you say that you're going to shoot yourself in the foot with a 12 ga. shotgun and I say, "That's gonna hurt!"
It's not conjecture to say that you'd die of asphyxiation in outer space, even though you have never visited there.
It's not conjecture to say that magnesium oxidizes under water.

Some things are already known. Some things are not. Investigate what is not known. Don't waste your time (and ours) by not acknowledging what is already known.

And don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Jim

Although I understand the point you were trying to make and won’t comment on the exaggerated analogies… I see no harm in doing things a little more formal on an experimental level…and I am not talking individuals conducting trials in their personal space

 

[DLS79]

What does this have to do with DACs?

Jim

It doesn't, it's a red herring!

 

[ads_cft222]

I saw a video on YouTube trying to reproduce a classic study about flat sound preferences (maybe Floyd Toole?).

The youtuber little study didn’t match (Toole?) the older results: participants didn’t consider better the flattest speakers

I remember that trained listeners preferred curve is a downward slope with respect to in room response .

 

[amper42]

Can filters be the answer to who, as me, find different sound on supposed well constructed DACs apart from psychological manipulation?
I’m very tired to continue arguments, my Focusrite Scarlett has minimal phase and Zen Dac has something called GTO “our infamous filter”. To my ears high frequencies sound so sharp to a fatiguing degree. Another Ifi DAC (dongle) has the same GTO thing and still sounds fatiguing on my IEMs

There are some measurements posted on the iFi GTO filter here:

iFi foe fum

A while ago, iFi released firmware version 5.30C for most of the their DAC models. The big news in this update is what they call the GTO filter. This filter is, according to iFi, so good that they produced a 9-page PDF espousing its virtues with much technobabble and several outright falsehoods. ...

audiophilestyle.com

From what I gather it's pretty much no filter at all. I can imagine that might be fatiguing. If it doesn't work for you, I would stop using the IFi device. From my reading it looks like GTO may be the only filter available on that unit? Most DACs offer several filters that roll off the highs using different methods. Below is an example showing the seven filters ASR measured on the Topping D90SE DAC. A sharp roll off may offer less fatigue if high frequencies are the cause.

 

[antcollinet]

I don’t see any way for this debate to settle without an independent party conducting a large scale test with jointly agreed methods and hypothesis . Everything is a conjecture currently. Although I don’t doubt that dacs definitely won’t have such a big impact as speakers and room correction.

Although to be honest I believe that many people will fail blind tests even between speakers or/and room correction .

Or someone who can hear a difference simply does a properly controlled blind test with just them as a subject, and proves it. Its odd though - no-one ever does it. Perhaps they don't trust their ears enough.

 

[ads_cft222]

Or someone who can hear a difference simply does a properly controlled blind test with just them as a subject, and proves it. Its odd though - no-one ever does it. Perhaps they don't trust their ears enough.

Who was gonna verify that he did that fairly or correctly or he could mentally process any differences and to what degree? And in any case we need a good sample to make estimates for the general population and a controlled environment and a trusted independent party .

 

[SIY]

I saw a video on YouTube trying to reproduce a classic study about flat sound preferences

YouTube being, of course, the most reliable way to do rigorous research.

 

[Miguelón]

I remember that trained listeners preferred curve is a downward slope with respect to in room response .

Yes, some weeks ago a member posted a question about ideas for his setup to reproduce another similar trial. I saw his video on YouTube and trained listeners didn’t chose the closest to room predicted response.
So I guess can so much harder on DAC testings, even on those with measurable differences

 

[Basic Channel]

There are some measurements posted on the iFi GTO filter here:

iFi foe fum

A while ago, iFi released firmware version 5.30C for most of the their DAC models. The big news in this update is what they call the GTO filter. This filter is, according to iFi, so good that they produced a 9-page PDF espousing its virtues with much technobabble and several outright falsehoods. ...

audiophilestyle.com

From what I gather it's pretty much no filter at all. I can imagine that might be fatiguing. If it doesn't work for you, I would stop using the IFi device. From my reading it looks like GTO may be the only filter available on that unit? Most DACs offer several filters that roll off the highs using different methods. Below is an example showing the seven filters ASR measured on the Topping D90SE DAC. A sharp roll off may offer less fatigue if high frequencies are the cause.

View attachment 365143

Even the sharpest rolloff there would surely inaudible to our subjects 48 year old ears. For me fatiguing would be the lower highs (1-7k), because its where are ears are most sensitive and the music we listen to actually has a lot at those frequencies. Whereas it has virtually nothing above 18k unless you are listening to Ryoji Ikeda or something.

In fact if there was a lot of information up there, a sharp roll off would likely cause a peak (like a hpf often does on a kick drum)

 

[Miguelón]

There are some measurements posted on the iFi GTO filter here:

iFi foe fum

A while ago, iFi released firmware version 5.30C for most of the their DAC models. The big news in this update is what they call the GTO filter. This filter is, according to iFi, so good that they produced a 9-page PDF espousing its virtues with much technobabble and several outright falsehoods. ...

audiophilestyle.com

From what I gather it's pretty much no filter at all. I can imagine that might be fatiguing. If it doesn't work for you, I would stop using the IFi device. From my reading it looks like GTO may be the only filter available on that unit? Most DACs offer several filters that roll off the highs using different methods. Below is an example showing the seven filters ASR measured on the Topping D90SE DAC. A sharp roll off may offer less fatigue if high frequencies are the cause.

View attachment 365143

I think Ifi offers firmware versions with other filters but you cannot change between them.

Yes, I bought 3 devices from this brand and was an error. The latest is the Ifi Zen Stream, it works one over three times despite resetting to factory conditions, installing latest firmware and so on.

Tidal especially is completely chaotic, the thing stops when finishing a track, sometimes it continue the playlist or the album, and suddenly it stops.

 

[ads_cft222]

I guess the below capacities vary from person to person and have to be accounted in a formal test .

• Auditory Perception: This is the fundamental ability to process sounds. Your brain's auditory cortex receives signals from your ears and transforms them into meaningful sound that you can identify and understand.
  Opens in a new window neurosciencenews.com
  Auditory Cortex in the brain
  
  
• Auditory Attention: The capacity to focus on specific sounds while filtering out irrelevant noises. This is like shining a spotlight on the specific elements of a sound you want to evaluate.
• Auditory Discrimination: The ability to distinguish between subtle differences in sounds. This might relate to differences in pitch, timbre (sound quality), loudness, or timing.
• Auditory Working Memory: This function holds auditory information for a short period. It's essential for comparing the sounds you hear in a blind test since you cannot experience them simultaneously.
• Auditory Decision Making: This process involves comparing the sounds you perceive, judging their differences, and deciding which is "better" or if you can identify any difference at all. Your prefrontal cortex plays a big role in this process.
  Opens in a new window www.medicalnewstoday.com
  Prefrontal Cortex in the brain

 

[Miguelón]

Even the sharpest rolloff there would surely inaudible to our subjects 48 year old ears. For me fatiguing would be the lower highs (1-7k), because its where are ears are most sensitive and the music we listen to actually has a lot at those frequencies. Whereas it has virtually nothing above 18k unless you are listening to Ryoji Ikeda or something.

In fact if there was a lot of information up there, a sharp roll off would likely cause a peak (like a hpf often does on a kick drum)

Surely in this range, Genelec has a -2 dB treble shelving above 5 kHz and it improves the highs.

 

[DonR]

I guess the below capacities vary from person to person and have to be accounted in a formal test .

• Auditory Perception: This is the fundamental ability to process sounds. Your brain's auditory cortex receives signals from your ears and transforms them into meaningful sound that you can identify and understand.
  Opens in a new window neurosciencenews.com
  Auditory Cortex in the brain
  
  
• Auditory Attention: The capacity to focus on specific sounds while filtering out irrelevant noises. This is like shining a spotlight on the specific elements of a sound you want to evaluate.
• Auditory Discrimination: The ability to distinguish between subtle differences in sounds. This might relate to differences in pitch, timbre (sound quality), loudness, or timing.
• Auditory Working Memory: This function holds auditory information for a short period. It's essential for comparing the sounds you hear in a blind test since you cannot experience them simultaneously.
• Auditory Decision Making: This process involves comparing the sounds you perceive, judging their differences, and deciding which is "better" or if you can identify any difference at all. Your prefrontal cortex plays a big role in this process.
  Opens in a new window www.medicalnewstoday.com
  Prefrontal Cortex in the brain

Absolutely, which is why it is better to rely on the electrical signal output of the DAC than an acoustical signal as received and processed by each individual.

Sometimes I wonder why I even own multimeters or oscilloscopes when I should be just tuning all my circuits by ear. /s <---- sarcasm.

 

[ads_cft222]

Absolutely, which is why it is better to rely on the electrical signal output of the DAC than an acoustical signal as received and processed by each individual.

Sometimes I wonder why I even own multimeters or oscilloscopes when I should be just tuning all my circuits by ear. /s

Who said that they are reliable instruments for tuning?

If I say ten things to a group of people in one minute timeframe will all remember all 10. If I hint a joke or an insult will everyone catch it although I have spoken the words loud and clear ?

 

[Jim Taylor]

Who said that they are reliable instruments for tuning?

If I say ten things to a group of people in one minute timeframe will all remember all 10. If I hint a joke or an insult will everyone catch it although I have spoken the words loud and clear ?

I believe that some of the members here employ sarcasm, in the belief that people whose native language is not English will understand it in the same manner that we do. Sometimes, this is not the case.

It has been suggested that posters who employ sarcasm use an emoji ( or or possibly ) to indicate as such, but many times posters here forget to do that.

Jim

 

[DonR]

I believe that some of the members here employ sarcasm, in the belief that people whose native language is not English will understand it in the same manner that we do. Sometimes, this is not the case.

It has been suggested that posters who employ sarcasm use an emoji D or or possibly ) to indicate as such, but many times posters here forget to do that.

Jim

I thought the /s was enough but apparently not. Apologies.

 

[ads_cft222]

I believe that some of the members here employ sarcasm, in the belief that people whose native language is not English will understand it in the same manner that we do. Sometimes, this is not the case.

It has been suggested that posters who employ sarcasm use an emoji D or or possibly ) to indicate as such, but many times posters here forget to do that.

Jim

That sarcasm though was not accurate if it was intended to me, since under no circumstance I supported that ears are reliable for tuning equipment . I know that many audiophiles support this view but my clear intention was to indicate that spotting differences is mostly based on mental capacity as long as of course there is a healthy hearing ability…