If all speakers measure flat, what is the point of auditioning?

[Ron Texas]

So if two gins measure equally good, say 47.3% alcohol, then pick the one with the bottle design you prefer?

That isn't a good example because gins are flavored with different botanicals. About all the alcohol content determines is how much it takes to get drunk.

 

[dfuller]

So... the thing is, there are so so so many measurements with speakers that are often not measured. On-axis response and directivity are the lion's share, sure - but you also have to consider things like port noise, thermal compression, distortion (both harmonic and more importantly multitone distortion/IMD), phase rotation/time alignment, group delay, and so on and so forth.

So yeah, you can characterize speakers with measurements, but doing so exhaustively is a ton of work. On the surface two speakers may measure extremely similarly, but sound quite different from one another. Or, through a combination of various factors interacting, sound quite similar in spite of their differences.

As an example - people here love to crap on brands like ATC that have less controlled directivity - and in spite of their wildly differing measurements, the similarly sized ATCs (SCM50 ASLs) don't sound that different from my Neumanns. They both sound pretty much "neutral".

 

[tmtomh]

Sometimes, this hobby amazes me.

There is a wild camp that feels we can sum it all up with measurement and be done with it. So, why not buy that stuff and be content? Why stick around to simply criticize the fact that people might like to compare speakers by listening to them? Can't y'all just slap a "prefect sound, forever" sticker on your shirt and move on?

I agree with you that it's generally silly to criticize others for how they like to approach comparing and purchasing gear - live and let live, absolutely.

In this case, though, the entire subject of the thread and the opening question of the OP was, "Can you shop based on measurements alone?" So people were explicitly asked what their view is on this - and so you can't accuse them of criticizing others simply for answering that question and, when they are asked to explain their reasoning, explaining their reasoning.

If anything, the only real criticism of others' views I see here is when those who hold a certain view are called a "wild camp" whose view makes makes one sad and incredulous ("sometimes, this hobby amazes me").

 

[ahofer]

How would one measure gin to conclude that two gins "measure equally good"?

Ahem

If all speakers measure flat, what is the point of auditioning?

Why would I need to even listen to a pair of speakers if they measure flat? All other variables equal, would they not sound the same? As others have noted "all other variables [being] equal" would be extremely rare. My exercise is theoretical, and I am trying to understand more of the...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[ahofer]

I'm amazed that people think they can usefully compare subjective observations of different speakers heard in different rooms.

At this point, if you forced me to limit myself exclusively to either listening or measurements, I'd choose measurements, even for speakers: good CEA 2034, wide dispersion, low distortion, low compression. Fortunately, nobody is forcing me to, but plenty of people (outside of ASR) are derisive of my emphasis on the importance of measurements.

 

[mhardy6647]

So if two gins measure equally good, say 47.3% alcohol, then pick the one with the bottle design you prefer?

Or ask your domestic partner if they can tell the difference from out in the kitchen, perhaps?

 

[KEM]

I have spent the better part of this week trying to understand shopping for speakers. I come from a home theater background and there accuracy is less important...I think. Here measurements trump everything. Why would I need to even listen to a pair of speakers if they measure flat? All other variables equal, would they not sound the same?

Speaker measurements can provide some very useful info that you will never get from listening. Sensitivity (how much power do I need to drive these things?), low frequency response (do I need a subwoofer?), angular response (can the person next to me get the same sound?), integraton between the separate drivers, and distortion are some of the very useful parameters for evaluating speakers. Sometimes on has to allow some deviations in frequency response to obtain improvement in another parameter (such as the trade-off between sensitivity and low end performance.

Listening is also just as important, although as pointed out above the sound in your room will be different from that in the showroom. Performance properties such as mentioned above can help in estimating how the speaker might perform in your environment.

 

[MattHooper]

There's no reason someone can't shop for speakers on measurements alone (presuming measurements done competently/honestly).

 

[Count Arthur]

There's no reason someone can't shop for speakers on measurements alone (presuming measurements done competently/honestly).

My entire Hi-Fi system is made up of components I bought unheard.

It is by far the best system I've ever had, but not the most expensive.

 

[mhardy6647]

There's no reason someone can't shop for speakers on measurements alone (presuming measurements done competently/honestly).

Historically, it wasn't very common.
Maybe it's better now?
I am somewhat skeptical.

 

[prestigetone]

So if two gins measure equally good, say 47.3% alcohol, then pick the one with the bottle design you prefer?

Very good! This gets to the paradox I am positing to the group.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'm amazed that people think they can usefully compare subjective observations of different speakers heard in different rooms.

At this point, if you forced me to limit myself exclusively to either listening or measurements, I'd choose measurements, even for speakers: good CEA 2034, wide dispersion, low distortion, low compression. Fortunately, nobody is forcing me to, but plenty of people (outside of ASR) are derisive of my emphasis on the importance of measurements.

I think I agree with this. Listening is desirable if you can do it. If you can't, go with the best measurements you can afford. Either way, you should at least narrow down based on measurements.

 

[Chrispy]

I do generally do the basic shopping on speaker measurements (don't know what you mean by flat particularly, tho). Good measurements and some good user experiences are usually enough for me to order, altho I do like a good return option....but live too far away from places to borrow speakers to take home to try....let alone drive the long distance to a place that has speakers to demo (let alone the range of choices) and do some vague auditioning exercise rather than in my own room.

 

[DMill]

No one has mentioned it yet. But speakers are furniture for most that don’t have a man cave. Looks do matter.

 

[Mr. Widget]

That isn't a good example because gins are flavored with different botanicals. About all the alcohol content determines is how much it takes to get drunk.

My choosing gin was no accident. Many successful and even decent measuring speakers are also colored. My point was aesthetics alone may be fine for a vase, but I wouldn't choose a chair, a gin, or a speaker on aesthetics and measurements alone.

 

[kemmler3D]

No one has mentioned it yet. But speakers are furniture for most that don’t have a man cave. Looks do matter.

Looks matter more than most people are willing to admit. In surveys I've run, virtually everyone will tell you that sound quality is the #1 factor for choosing a speaker. What goes unsaid (until the reviews come in after you launch an ugly speaker) is that in order to get the chance to be evaluated on sound quality, the speaker has to pass the "furniture test" first. Speakers you consider ugly never enter the race in the first place.

 

[Mr. Widget]

1. not all speakers measure flat.
2. speakers with nearly identical preference scores can sound different.
3. speakers with excellent dispersion but imperfect frequency response can often be equalized to sound much better.
4. brief auditions of speakers in dealer showrooms are nearly useless.

EXACTLY!

 

[rynberg]

We really need to move past this "flat" terminology, the correct terminology is "neutral". Two speakers can have very good predicted in-room response (PIR) with two very different radiation patterns -- for example, I prefer Revel over KEF even with very similar PIRs because the Revels have a wider radiation pattern than KEF. To me, a wider soundstage is preferred to a narrower, deeper, and more precise one -- this is why directivity is so important to understand. Once you understand the full range of measurements deeply, you can understand why you hear what you hear when you listen to a speaker -- I auditioned multiple speakers in my home, all for which full spinorama data were available. It is educational to tie what one hears subjectively directly to the data.

Beyond that, compression and output/distortion parameters are quite important as well. You can get a very neutral pair of neutral speakers from Genelec or Neumann for around $1,000 that are completely useless for home theater or even music listening in a larger room 9 to 10 feet from the speakers, as they simply don't play loudly enough.

 

[holdingpants01]

We really need to move past this "flat" terminology, the correct terminology is "neutral".

Right! Someone said "brutally flat" which is misleading, suggesting that's some kind of a brutal filter on top of the music, you wouldn't say a speaker is brutally distortion free, or a screen brutally color accurate. Neutral speakers doesn't make music sound good or bad, they're just showing the material as is

 

[ahofer]

Right! Someone said "brutally flat" which is misleading, suggesting that's some kind of a brutal filter on top of the music, you wouldn't say a speaker is brutally distortion free, or a screen brutally color accurate. Neutral speakers doesn't make music sound good or bad, they're just showing the material as is

The term is "analytical" (not "neutral") and is placed in opposition with "musical" (not "colored" or "altered"). We'll make a reviewer/audio salesman out of you yet.

If you put your brutally analytical signal through very musical amps and speakers, or vice versa, it might live up to its billing. I had an experience like that with some Paradigms once.