Why do passive speakers still exist?

[Vacceo]

You cannot expect developing countries to repeat what was done 100 years ago. Just like they skipped to maglev trains and mobile phones, the growth of spending trends in audio will be to mobile and personal not “living room” equipment

With leissure, you never know.

 

[Vacceo]

BTW, I just saw that Sonus Faber has released a pair of bookshelf active speakers. It´d be interesting to see the spinorama on those.

 

[MKR]

BTW, I just saw that Sonus Faber has released a pair of bookshelf active speakers. It´d be interesting to see the spinorama on those.

Hopefully better than their passive offerings

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Hopefully better than their passive offerings

Why would they tune their active speakers vastly different than their passive "house sound"?

 

[MKR]

Why would they tune their active speakers vastly different than their passive "house sound"?

Maybe they won’t, but maybe they have a better chance to get it right with active, though you are probably right. Will just be a “lifestyle” SF with the same broken FR

 

[Vacceo]

The model is called Duetto. As usual, the design is very nice, the performance, we don´t know.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Maybe they won’t, but maybe they have a better chance to get it right with active, thought you are probably right. Will just be a “lifestyle” SF with the same broken FR

You make it sound like it's random how the response turns out to be. They know exactly how to tune their crossovers. It's just that some subjective marketing and internal golden ears has taken control.

 

[Killingbeans]

87 pages! Could someone please just answer the OP's question already??

First reason: Actives have a reputation of poor thermal management (I blame the cheap stuff), and people fear having to send them in for repairs.

Second reason: Cable management. People don't like the idea of having to run both power and signaling to their speakers.

Both of those are probably just excuses for avoiding the real reason:

It's a hobby. In all hobbies all-in-one/plug-and-play solutions are seen as boring and soulless. Fun defies logic.

 

[DLS79]

You make it sound like it's random how the response turns out to be. They know exactly how to tune their crossovers. It's just that some subjective marketing and internal golden ears has taken control.

Sales can be very problematic at times as well.

Many years ago at one place I worked a sales person fenagled his way into signing a major contract, by promising the customer would have access to a new feature when the deal was finalized. The new feature was still in preliminary development and wasn't scheduled to be released for several months. Lots of people called for the sales guys head.......

 

[Anton D]

Well, if the superbly measuring electronics coming out of China (Eversolo, SMSL, etc) these days is any indication, maybe they are more focused on performance than nonsense.

That must be it.

 

[MKR]

You make it sound like it's random how the response turns out to be. They know exactly how to tune their crossovers. It's just that some subjective marketing and internal golden ears has taken control.

That’s not at all what I meant. If you look at one of my other posts on SF, I say exactly that … SF knows exactly what they are doing. Their FR sells speakers in showrooms and ultimately that is their end goal. Now, long term satisfaction with the end user is a fully different topic.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

That’s not at all what I meant. If you look at one of my other posts on SF, I say exactly that … SF knows exactly what they are doing. Their FR sells speakers in showrooms and ultimately that is their end goal. Now, long term satisfaction with the end user is a fully different topic.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

 

[MKR]

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

No problem sir!

 

[srrxr71]

Maybe I misunderstood something, but if You already have DSP for eq etc.., how does it make things simpler when You the add passive xo network, instead of using the DSP-capability that is already there ?

You can put made by hand of virgins oil capacitor in. That always sounds better.

 

[srrxr71]

The list of actives that would appeal to home market is indeed small. But, that list is slowly getting better, and I predict will continue to do so going forward as more folks get a chance to hear what the D&Ds, Genelecs, etc of the world are capable of. But, the force is strong in the traditional audiophile crowd, will take time to pull folks away from the bling and silliness.

I was hoping Apple would make the first home actives. HomePod plus home sub. Atmos decoding built in.

 

[srrxr71]

Maybe they won’t, but maybe they have a better chance to get it right with active, though you are probably right. Will just be a “lifestyle” SF with the same broken FR

What makes pro actives great is that you can adjust your house curve as you see fit.

 

[dannut]

Although I vote against the phase-linearization part.
I've tried that a few times, and found it is a 1D solution for a 3D requirement. (in line with previous discussion)
It's been hit or miss, with hit's not being all that much of a hit, ime.

Not worth adding FIR complexity to a passive, imo.
(at the speaker design level, leaving room correction as an entirely different discussion))

You can safely treat a situation, where sources are <1/4wl apart, as 1d. Eg a 3-way with steep slopes between low-mid. It needs a simple phase unwrap so the resulting group-delay would be below the audibility threshold. Even with wider spacing, the arriving reflections can be mangled, but the direct sound needs to be half-decent.

Different situation is with overlapping dissimilar speakers, where a simple time-alignment is not enough (too large overlap region). Most egregious is a 3-way center + 2-way fronts that by design have dissimilar phase response even when 'time aligned'. Also in large-room and outdoor installations, where at the overlapping region mains and fills have vastly different phase response that can't be solved with a simple delay. (yes - you can use allpass filters also).

Maybe I misunderstood something, but if You already have DSP for eq etc.., how does it make things simpler when You the add passive xo network, instead of using the DSP-capability that is already there ?

By having >2x less channels of amplification and DSP. Think of a 9.x.6 active system VS an AVR based system.

 

[gnarly]

You can safely treat a situation, where sources are <1/4wl apart, as 1d. Eg a 3-way with steep slopes between low-mid. It needs a simple phase unwrap so the resulting group-delay would be below the audibility threshold. Even with wider spacing, the arriving reflections can be mangled, but the direct sound needs to be half-decent.

Yep, keeping all driver center to center spacing within 1/4wl would be best case for successful global correction.....

But realistically, how often does that happens? Particularly maintaining 1/4wl throughout the full critical crossover summation range? (which I'd call at least thru -20dB response)
And how often are passive crossovers steep enough to confine the full critical summation range to stay within 1/4wl? I think kinda never...

I also think both low-mid, and mid-high, need to keep c2c within 1/4wl. Not easy, especially on any kind of flat baffle.

So yeah, on paper a 1D correction could be used for a 3D requirement, if the 3D space/requirement is compacted enough....I just don't see that happening very often, if at all.
Which means most likely the global correction is correct only to the specific spot of measurement.


Admittedly, I strive for the best results possible out of a speaker's acoustic design. I personally can't see that being anything other that multi-amped, driver sections individually corrected prior to crossover, and then tied together with linear-phase xovers.
Which means for me at the speaker design level, FIR needs to be available on all channels, and not just for global input..

 

[dannut]

But realistically, how often does that happens? Particularly maintaining 1/4wl throughout the full critical crossover summation range? (which I'd call at least thru -20dB response)
And how often are passive crossovers steep enough to confine the full critical summation range to stay within 1/4wl? I think kinda never...

Easy. Take a 3-way with 4th order (analog/IIR/minphaseFIR) slopes ~300Hz/3000Hz. Resulting (excess)group delay is >3ms @100Hz and no-question-about-it audible. Transient attack is not what it could be. Backed by research btw. (Will have to dig in the library for concrete studies, I think it was from Aalto University?).

Which means for me at the speaker design level, FIR needs to be available on all channels, and not just for global input

You could as well do an IIR/analog filter 24dB/oct acoustical slope XO and then FIR phase correction. No meaningful difference. Higher order slopes are not very beneficial due to higher excursion right above the filter knee. Many more caveats, but I think Grimm has nicely explained the same philosophy in their whitepaper: https://www.grimmaudio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/speakers.pdf (edit - please ignore the marketing-speak, on-topic/useful info starts at § 2.3)

 

[dannut]

And to add to the topic, there is also a phenomenon that dr Griesinger describes as 'attention grabbing'/'nearness'/'proxymity' that is dependant on having a linear(ish)-phase at the higher frequencies also. Not much studies, but I think Tapio Lokki (also from Aalto) could have done some research in the field.

Problem is, all the previous studies could be faulty concerning detecting recorded 'proxymity' (and phase errors) due to various issues in the capture and reproduction phase.