HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[SteveL]

If you like your $6000 purchase good on you, enjoy! The fury that ensues when others don't validate your choice is entertaining.

 

[Jimbob54]

suddenly consider it measuring(=sounding) like a 20$ iem.

Has anyone (certainly not Amir surely?) said this sounds like a £20 iem?

I have seen others on here say a £20 iem is more compliant with the relevant target FR than the Susvara. That is true. (7hz zero fur example) I also think many would say certain £20 iem are more tonally correct than an un EQd Susvara.

 

[Rhamnetin]

What does it say to take a legendary piece of equipment (who has been reviewed by thousands of critics over the past 7 years) and take a dump on it. take a vague measurement, and suddenly consider it measuring(=sounding) like a 20$ iem. This all in the name of "science" while highly laugable, everyone including Amir is considering himself a scientist

Once again, the vast majority of reviews you point to are just subjective assessment. And thousands of critics? You seem to be very emotional about this.

It also doesn't measure at all like that $20 IEM; that $20 IEM blows it out of the water in measurements. The two will sound very different certainly.

Vague measurement? Please explain the issues you have with the measurements, because if we want to have constructive criticism, this is the area to do so. We want to have a scientific discussion here, so if you have valuable feedback for the scientific method employed here, please share it instead of responding emotionally like you've been doing.

I also ask again, what's laughable about a data driven approach? I find it laughable that the "audiophile" industry is 99% snake oil, baseless superlatives, hive mind worship of expensive products regardless of how they sound, and attacking those who go against the hive mind.

 

[fredristair]

“Eppur si muove” (“And yet it moves)”

 

[Jimbob54]

“Eppur si muove” (“And yet it moves)”

How wonderfully gnomic.

 

[fredristair]

I have more irony than you.

 

[Jimbob54]

I have more irony than you.

You're cetainly full of it. Now, where are all these people saying the Susvara sounds like a $20 iem at?

 

[solderdude]

Headphones.com people had the same theory about the Beyer DT series by the way if I recall correctly. They think DT series are not very good, but since everyone recommends it to each other, they become well liked.

BD DT770 is popular in a studio as a monitor.
The reasons are simple.
It is cheap
BD has plenty in stock (quick and easy to obtain).
It is durable, no need to handle with care.
You can throw it around and even sit on them by accident.
Easy to fix if needed (headband padding and pads that wear out quickly).
For monitoring voices it works really well as it is neutral in that range.
Has decent isolation for a passive.
Long (fixed) cord.
Musicians usually don't care about fidelity and just want comfort and clear sound.
People see them on TV so this must be a good headphone and start using it.
Bass is elevated, does not bleed into the mids.
People perceive the treble peak as 'highly detailed sound'.
Myth is born.

Is it a good hifi headphone ? No it is not.
Does it sell well (just like Sennheisers)... Yep.
Easy to buy in stores and online ... yep
Still being sold after decades ... yep

All the things one would never do with a > $ 300 headphone, let alone a flagship.

 

[Chagall]

Has anyone (certainly not Amir surely?) said this sounds like a £20 iem?

I have seen others on here say a £20 iem is more compliant with the relevant target FR than the Susvara. That is true. (7hz zero fur example) I also think many would say certain £20 iem are more tonally correct than an un EQd Susvara.

No, Amir just pasted praise from the Zero2 IEM review here to make a point.

@solderdude said:
When one wants Harman tuning, low distortion and high SPL and not having to fork out a lot of money a € 25.- IEM will do and you can drive it from a phone.
And that is completely true.

But then somehow that morphed into $£€20 IEM is better than Susvara overall and in everything and for everyone...

 

[asrUser]

Why do so many ppl compare IEMs to headphones? They're different worlds. Headphones also can't be compared to speakers. Better be comparing Susvara to cheaper headphones like Sundara, HD560S and others.

 

[IAtaman]

BD DT770 is popular in a studio as a monitor.
The reasons are simple.
It is cheap
BD has plenty in stock (quick and easy to obtain).
It is durable, no need to handle with care.
You can throw it around and even sit on them by accident.
Easy to fix if needed (headband padding and pads that wear out quickly).
For monitoring voices it works really well as it is neutral in that range.
Has decent isolation for a passive.
Long (fixed) cord.
Musicians usually don't care about fidelity and just want comfort and clear sound.
People see them on TV so this must be a good headphone and start using it.
Bass is elevated, does not bleed into the mids.
People perceive the treble peak as 'highly detailed sound'.
Myth is born.

Is it a good hifi headphone ? No it is not.
Does it sell well (just like Sennheisers)... Yep.
Easy to buy in stores and online ... yep
Still being sold after decades ... yep

All the things one would never do with a > $ 300 headphone, let alone a flagship.

You are most probably right about the studio use. I think the comment was about it being recommended as a good closed back headphone. I bought mine thinking it would be a
good, "Hifi" closed back.

 

[solderdude]

I always loved it when people claimed their K240 were great sounding.
Same story... fine in a studio for monitoring and how they got their reputation.
Horrible for hifi yet many claimed it was great.

 

[IAtaman]

I don't know about K240, just read the reviews. But I love my EQ'ed K245 actually. Best bass in what is advertised as an open back headphone I ever heard.

 

[virtua]

Based on looks, comfort and tuning I'd probably like them more without EQ than the Aryas I've had.

I can definitely see that.

For me, I had a HE1000V2 for a little while (which is tuned a little more similarly to the Susvara, being a little more neutral, particularly in the mid treble) and deliberated on whether I should keep my Arya V2 or the HE1000V2. In the end I couldn't let up the Arya V2, I can definitely feel it's a little sharp in the treble once in a while on certain songs, but it's a downside I live with and it more than makes up for this with all the other qualities it has.

 

[Chagall]

Once again, the vast majority of reviews you point to are just subjective assessment. And thousands of critics? You seem to be very emotional about this.

It also doesn't measure at all like that $20 IEM; that $20 IEM blows it out of the water in measurements. The two will sound very different certainly.

Vague measurement? Please explain the issues you have with the measurements, because if we want to have constructive criticism, this is the area to do so. We want to have a scientific discussion here, so if you have valuable feedback for the scientific method employed here, please share it instead of responding emotionally like you've been doing.

I also ask again, what's laughable about a data driven approach? I find it laughable that the "audiophile" industry is 99% snake oil, baseless superlatives, hive mind worship of expensive products regardless of how they sound, and attacking those who go against the hive mind.

There can be a disconnect between measuring headphones and actual performance while listening to them for every individual. That has nothing to do with bad hearing or preference. Headphone measurements aren't as precise as measuring DACs or amps and require listening tests. This has all been said before. You can't know how a headphone/IEM sounds just by looking at the graph. Amir's and Solderdude's reviews differ in the conclusion while having similar measurement results.

I'm hoping that in a couple of years, we will have new research, a more reliable set of measurements, and completely forgo subjective assessment. But for now, it's a must.

 

[Rhamnetin]

There can be a disconnect between measuring headphones and actual performance while listening to them for every individual. That has nothing to do with bad hearing or preference. Headphone measurements aren't as precise as measuring DACs or amps and require listening tests. This has all been said before. You can't know how a headphone/IEM sounds just by looking at the graph. Amir's and Solderdude's reviews differ in the conclusion while having similar measurement results.

I'm hoping that in a couple of years, we will have new research, a more reliable set of measurements, and completely forgo subjective assessment. But for now, it's a must.

Hopefully continued Harman research (but I of course welcome new research) and perhaps their frequency response target should be more commonly illustrated as a range rather than a single curve (since it already isn't a single FR curve).

 

[617]

Of course.

Huh? We measure because we know what we are measuring. We have standards and references. When I show a graph like this:

We know we are looking at design problems when other headphones show this:

I can readily and defensibly conclude that the Expanse is far better designed to keep distortion at bay compared to Susvara.

We also have a reference for frequency response and can explain deficiencies relative to that.

So once more, measurements are objective. What they tell us is also objective. They may not be normative/prescriptive but they are objective.

This is what separates my reviews from others. The cornerstone of my reviews are the measurements based on both research and engineering. With proper measurements, we get quite far in assessing performance of a headphone. Others use measurements as an afterthought or footnote.

What does 5.5% thd translate to in terms of dB below fundamental?

I find it very difficult to believe narrow band distortion at these levels would be audible at all. From what I know about distortion these should be masked.

I agree with the conclusion that this is a flaw in the driver engineering (not that we needed this graph to say that when we had the FR) but I don't believe this would be audible, especially at normal listening levels.

 

[617]

Hopefully continued Harman research (but I of course welcome new research) and perhaps their frequency response target should be more commonly illustrated as a range rather than a single curve (since it already isn't a single FR curve).

I don't think it is unreasonable to presume that there is a small group of consumers who have different tonal preferences for headphones than the general public. The majority of headphones miss the Harman bass target by a mile.

I suspect there has always been a large group of audiophiles who are analytical and head-bound by nature who don't like the physical reality of bass being imposed upon them, and prefer a tonal balance which permits them to hear 'detail' while filtering out the stuff that makes other people dance.

When I used to read stereophile they'd always talk about these jazz singer ladies and sounded like weirdo fetish asmr videos to me.

Since then I always critique the musical tastes of reviewers. I can tell by the music they like how they listen and whether the love music the way I try to.

 

[usern]

Again, it is better to try and figure out why over the years people that constantly buy and sell headphones and gear, frequently getting frustrated, displeased, and disappointed in the gear they buy, often settle up on a Susvara on a setup they find agreeable and highly curated. It is not because they enjoy following the crowd. These are often lunatics or at least sometimes disagreeable and certainly idiosyncratic people but by and large highly intelligent people that have binged and purged audio gear for a long time and have no difficulty in selling something they just bought, or returning it.

How do you know this sales data?

My interpretation of Amir's measurements is that Hifiman tried to do something with phasing effect. This effect could be just enough for the review and hifi people to recommend it over other products. But as we can see, the effect brings downsides in distortion - distortion peaks, phase and FR steps align with each other at multiples of 300 Hz. Reviewers don't measure distortion or phase so these things are opaque and now when they are thoroughly measured this tradeoff is revealed. I think it's failure of Hifiman to explain this effect and its tradeoffs and feature of hifi reviewers only focusing on frequency response and not testing limits when doing measurements. Seems Amir is only one who tests limits - how loud you can push a headphone with distortions below audibility threshold.

 

[majingotan]

Why do so many ppl compare IEMs to headphones? They're different worlds. Headphones also can't be compared to speakers. Better be comparing Susvara to cheaper headphones like Sundara, HD560S and others.

At the end of the day those $20 IEMs reproduce sound more accurate than Susvara objectively. You don’t have any HRTF worries about so there’s no unwanted reflections which Susvara shows on the measurement since all the sound energy is directed to eardrums just like nearfield monitors being more accurate than far field monitors (without room correction) due to less chances of unwanted room reflections between it and your eardrums.

Think of your car speakers. In some ways some people prefer their sonic subjectively (it gives more emotional connection to music more often than not) than their Moondrops or Truthear IEMs even though that car audio is a terrible environment for audio. For some people, Susvara over anything because like on the poster on the car audio thread, Susvara gives them the most enjoyment over anything. Again for some it could be the Blessing 3 IEMs, Truthear Zero, HD6XX, BD DT770 over any gear out there for the same reasons. Objectively however you cannot reject the fact that a $£€ 20 IEM is superior than Susvara.

My OEM Car System has ruined HiFi for me. Thoughts?

I've come to a realization that my Mark Levinson OEM audio system in my 2015 Lexus RC-350 sounds drastically more enjoyable than any of my home audio HiFi setups. It's true that my home systems do sound more detailed, but they don't sound anywhere near as engaging and they all have a worse...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So if I was asked what headphone gear I would recommend, I’d definitely tell them to get the most transparent gear first ($£€ 20 IEM and a Qudelix 5K or an E30II/L30II with DCA E3/Expanse/Stealth for ones with heavy wallets) and have them learn on how music should sound like in the most accurate way). Then they can decide from themselves whether a poorly performing /distortion effect box system is preferable to their subjective taste or not. I’m willing to bet they will prefer the SOTA system since they have acquired the sound of accurate reproduction