• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

Rate this headphone:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 216 61.9%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 61 17.5%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 33 9.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 39 11.2%

  • Total voters
    349

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,358
Likes
5,321
Location
Nashville
Well, $21 IEM could well be better than this Susvara - nothing stopping it! Poll cannot take into account people listening to the headphone as most people haven't listened to the headphone, it's a poll based on the measurements and people's opinions of how they weigh up the product after seeing the measurements, hearing Amir's critique, and judging it on it's purchasing merit (ie value/price) - nothing wrong with all that, how it should be.
I find it ridiculous when people complain about someone judging a product which they have not heard solely on the basis of measurements. How many people will ever have the opportunity to hear a Susvara. I am an audiophile of nearly 50 years, own two flagship headphones, a Smythe A16 Realizer and live in Music City (Nashville) and I have no clue on where I could go locally to audition them. And based on their measurements and their price, why would I bother?

I think it's entirely fair to judge the Susvaras on the basis of their measured distortions and their price. Headphones are the one venue that allows anyone to play music just as loud as they want: Doesn't require a 3000 watt amplifier or a $50k set of speakers with 18 inch subwoofers, or a house in the middle of nowhere. Just get a reasonably efficient, low distortion pair of phones, a decent high powered headphone amp, and a room where you can be alone, and you can crank it to your heart's content. But not if they're Susvaras which is inexcusable. And for all those who contend that they're not about to play them at 114db ever please remember that if you play them loud, the peaks will approach 114 db, and they will be distorted, audibly, in the very range where the ear is most sensitive to distortion. It was probably that distortion Amir heard when he talked about a "static" crunch while not playing it all that loudly. He called it a deal breaker, and I don't see how anyone can disagree.

Moreover, they apparently have faults that can't be EQ'd away. Cup reflections are a huge issue. For some apparently that creates a "diffuse, ethereal" presentation that makes for a unique sonic signature befitting an edge of the art headphone." Whatever.

So is it fair to jump all over an offering just because it commands an ultra premium price, but doesn't deliver edge of the art, impeccable measurement? Of course. I can remember reading an early issue of The Audio Critic in the late 1970's where Peter Aczel did a survey of high end preamps. In it, the most expensive one retailed for $1800. It was roughly 3x as expensive as the next most expensive, and Aczel tore it to shreds because it didn;t do things like have an accurate RIAA curve or a moving coil step up device, and he just went nuts about that. So taking a manufacturer to task when they ask a big price without matching performance is a time honored method of doing audio criticism, and no one should have an issue with it. It's called consumerism, and places like TAS could learn a thing or two from Peter Aczel.

Poor value is unforgivable with a top of the line product. No one was doing this kind of criticism of the Dan Clark Stealth or Expanse because they cleared the hurdles of offering first rate measured performance for their asking price, and no one would be doing this with Susvaras either if they measured even half so well.
 
Last edited:

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,542
Likes
1,826
Location
Laguna, Philippines
Time and time again we see that measurements agree with perception. I'll try to correlate the measurements with what I'm hearing in my opinion

Group delay as well as earcup to earlobe reflections and HRTF are the main cause of what I and others who have heard this headphone as "ethereal", "spatial", "reverb-ery", "3D" or in other words "wide, fast, open and airy" subjective lingo. Because of group delay in the frequency range and lack of any dampening, all those reflections will translate to distortion peaks when driven loud. Think of a loudspeaker on untreated room where at quiet level of listening, the speaker won't have enough sound energy to vibrate the walls thus will actually measure exceptionally good on a spinorama but once you start performing Spinorama at 106 dB SPL, you'll also capture reflected energy bouncing from walls thus creating group delay and perception of reverb-ery, extended, trailing sound which how Susvara sounds when driven loud. Some people chase that type of sound and are willing to pay whatever the costs, but objectively it's not high fidelity. The total opposite of this is of course IEMs that are SOTA where you get what recording plays nothing more, nothing extra, and since they direct energy straight to your eardrums, expect most of them to perform exceptionally well in the distortion criteria (unless that said IEM has some audiophile chamber marketing that once again, induces group delay and distortion, reflections to add reverb, ethereal whatever people call as "engaging sound" these days.

I have heard the Stealth myself many times and its sound does not produce any excessive trailing notes and why if you go to subjective forums, they are criticized as boring and sterile (lack of reverbs and crunch in the tones). The AMTS materials is definitely doing an excellent job removing cup resonance and wave guide to provide that SOTA measurements. However, we can also see lots of subjectivists love that precise, no coloration sound and heck you can certainly use that headphone for mixing and tracking and get excellent results. If you have heard the Susvara, they produce sound that can be analogous to a built-in tube amp since it emphasizes those traits, backed by measurements as you guys can see :)
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,542
Likes
1,826
Location
Laguna, Philippines
I mean even Crinacle, who created the $20 IEM everyone keeps referring to, has the Susvara firmly in his “S” rating tier alongside the HE1. So he created a perfect measuring, perfect distortion IEM but still considers the Susvara as one of the best headphones on the market while he doesn’t think very highly of the “perfect” (on this forum) Dan Clark’s.

I’ve purchased a lot that I’ve loved based on this forum (Holo audio products, KH 120’s, KH 750’s, 7Hz Crinacle 2) but I still love my Susvaras even if they’re getting panned here - makes me also feel like measurements aren’t everything to enjoyment

Sennheiser HE-1 has tube sound injected to it BTW, it's literally the opposite of high fidelity but you can call it as pleasing sounding as it should for a luxury product. Just like a Hermes bag full of quirks but its branding/bragging rights are pleasing to their owners.
 

_thelaughingman

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
1,370
Likes
2,064
Yeah it's mind boggling how negatively people react to measurements. Why let it bother you that something you like the sound of doesn't measure well? Or why is it wrong for a reviewer to not recommend a product that measures poorly in some areas and costs manyl times what it should? Being seriously flawed AND overpriced exempts a product from criticism?
I"m open to having this product criticized for being overpriced and having flaws, heck majority of the price of that product is marketing gimmick
 

_thelaughingman

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
1,370
Likes
2,064
Sennheiser HE-1 has tube sound injected to it BTW, it's literally the opposite of high fidelity but you can call it as pleasing sounding as it should for a luxury product. Just like a Hermes bag full of quirks but its branding/bragging rights are pleasing to their owners.
That is the point that I made with my original post few pages back.
 
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
19
Likes
17
You have to be high to pay 6K for headphones.
Yes the MSRP is 6k, but to be fair (and I'm only bringing this up because the 6k price tag has been referenced multiple times already) it can be found by dealers for less - and Hifiman themselves sell them open box with less than 30 days use for 4200 plus I think they give like $200 back or something if you just create an account before purchase.

Still alot of money though, but hey 2 grand is a big difference.
 

Ken1951

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Messages
879
Likes
1,868
Location
Blacksburg, VA
Based upon the value of a dollar in 1975, when I bought a pair of Stax headphone for around $300 including the electrics box, if I was in the market for headphones my max would be that equivalent price ~~ $1,700. The Stax at the time were, to my ears, incredible and I would hope one would be able to purchase that excellence for that price today. $6,000 seems insane to me whatever the measurements.
 

Blake

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2021
Messages
34
Likes
51
Group delay as well as earcup to earlobe reflections and HRTF are the main cause of what I and others who have heard this headphone as "ethereal", "spatial", "reverb-ery", "3D" or in other words "wide, fast, open and airy" subjective lingo.

That actually explains a lot for me. I spent some time with the Susvara at CanJam a couple years ago, and I remember using the word "airy" to describe it. That must be why.

When I heard it, I felt the Susvara wasn't quite my bag. I didn't hate it, but it was just lacking something for me... maybe not enough "body", I guess. Inoffensively pleasant, but not all that engaging. I voted "not terrible" here. I might've gone as high as "fine", but yeah, the price and the measurements take it down a notch for me.
 

MacClintock

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2023
Messages
622
Likes
1,163
The core issue is the lack of a clear objective in what we're trying to measure. My personal goal in purchasing headphones is to achieve lifelike reproductions of high-quality recordings.

And this the Susvara definitely does not deliver. Maybe it sounds somehow "good", but for sure not lifelike with it's obvious deviation from Harman and it's recessed 1-3 kHz region.
 
Last edited:

MacClintock

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2023
Messages
622
Likes
1,163
Except Susvara does not measure like s#!t.. Actually it measures OK, acceptable, pass on the pass / fail scale. It does not sound good is Amir's opinion. There is no measurement to suggest that.
it might measure ok, but definitely not good. And it may not sound bad, but also not very good. So still no justification for this very high price tag.
 

Rhamnetin

Active Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2023
Messages
219
Likes
452

Thanks, I was recently considering the stealth version of this if I could find it in the $2-2.5k range somewhere, but once the DCA E3 came out I just went with that and I'm glad I did. What a breath of fresh air the E3 is.

And this the Susvara definitely does not deliver. Maybe it sounds somehow "good", but for sure not lifelike ith it's obvious deviation fro Harman and it's receesed 1-3 kHz region.

Which is how many modern high end HiFiMans seem to measure and I certainly don't prefer that sound.
 

Sokel

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Messages
6,289
Likes
6,430
I'm happy to see another overpriced audiophool product reviewed, very interesting measurements indeed. I hope someone eventually sends the $5,500 HE-R10P as well.
Doesn't have the pedigree (or even the price) to meet this criterion.
Not by a long shot.
 

MacClintock

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2023
Messages
622
Likes
1,163
I mean even Crinacle, who created the $20 IEM everyone keeps referring to, has the Susvara firmly in his “S” rating tier alongside the HE1. So he created a perfect measuring, perfect distortion IEM but still considers the Susvara as one of the best headphones on the market while he doesn’t think very highly of the “perfect” (on this forum) Dan Clark’s.
Because he is highly influenced by the price.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
16,158
Likes
36,894
Location
The Neitherlands
I spent some time with the Susvara at CanJam a couple years ago, and I remember using the word "airy" to describe it. That must be why.

The 'airy' part is caused by the slight and above all 'smooth' peak between 8kHz and 12kHz.
This also happens to be the 'sharpness' range.
The difference between 'sharpness' and 'airy' is that when it sounds sharp the peak is usually higher and the response in that region is also 'jagged' (large peaks and dips) in that case.
What makes the treble better (airy) is the fact that it is without any dips and narrow peaks up to 18kHz in the treble range.
Something that not many headphones do well.
Also note the extension far beyond 30kHz which most headphones can not reach or only at -20dB.
Just like with amplifier bandwidths this helps at higher amplitudes (higher dV/dt equivalent).
 

dtaylo1066

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
663
Likes
834
As to the price discussion, I would think for $1,500 or less one could find a better performing unit, and certainly one that performs as well, if not also buy an HP amp. At this stratospheric cost level, one would have to be a 100% dedicated headphone listener and not be able to or care to have a system with speakers. Personally, I dislike listening to music on headphones and use it as only a last resort. I realize others are in a different camp, though. From an ASR or objectivist standpoint, these don't stack up.

If I were to pay 6K for HPs they would have to be 100% spectacular in measurements and listening tests. And I would first pay my $25 copay to go get a hearing test.
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,542
Likes
1,826
Location
Laguna, Philippines
Actually, Amir gave the Susvara a very good presentation by not providing the stock cable in the front page. The stock cable that it comes with is horrible both looks and functionality wise. I immediately swap my audio bling-bling cable to make it look like a luxurious product lol

1703445791764.png


That actually explains a lot for me. I spent some time with the Susvara at CanJam a couple years ago, and I remember using the word "airy" to describe it. That must be why.

When I heard it, I felt the Susvara wasn't quite my bag. I didn't hate it, but it was just lacking something for me... maybe not enough "body", I guess. Inoffensively pleasant, but not all that engaging. I voted "not terrible" here. I might've gone as high as "fine", but yeah, the price and the measurements take it down a notch for me.

Body is a function of upper bass emphasis which is the sole reason why Dan Clark tuned his Stealth and Expanse to have that bump. Harman Curve proves this that most will prefer a rising boost from upper-bass to subbass for the body to be preceptible as correct levels. For me Susvara has enough body for even action-packed blu-ray movies though I admit, I like ethereal sound that only Stax gears used to provide back then which what pulled the Susvara ahead of the DCA headphones to me. None of the Hifiman models, even the HE1000se have that Stax-like sound to it and that's apparent from Susvara's group delay measurements. Only reason I don't like e-stats is their walled garden nature of using only e-stat amps for them to work. ZMF Caldera though OTOH is wonky in the presence region to my ears while there's none of any Hifiman headphone models ever felt incorrect in their tonality in the presence region to my ears. Once again, not everyone will like e-stat sound and for them will sound totally wrong to their perception, including the Sennheiser HE-1.
 
Top Bottom