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"Chord Electronics FPGA DAC Technology Explained" - What went wrong?

amirm

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You can always argue that the Dave's king's ransom of price is just too much for whatever performance it provides, but you'd still have to tell me how it sounds.
I did in my review of DAVE:

"CHORD DAVE Listening Tests
I started my testing with my Dan Clark Stealth headphone which is the same one the DAC designer prefers. At low to medium volumes, the sound was excellent and I could not detect any impairments. Crank up the volume though and the sound proceeds to get shrill and congested. This is a difficult to drive headphone but again, for the kind of money you are paying, I don't expect compromises.

Switching to Sennheiser HD650 did not improve the situation much as predicted from measurements (not enough power for the class). Again at low to medium levels there was nothing to complain about. Crank it up though and shrillness and high frequency accentuation became way too much. Using DAVE DAC to drive the Topping A90 Discrete remedied that problem.

Overall, I could detect no magic or special qualities attributed to the filtering of the DAC. At low to medium levels it sounded like other DAC/Amps I have tested."


So there. But you seem to be shopping for answers you like, not those that can be backed by solid objective engineering and measurements. We can't help you there.
 

amirm

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Now, whether upsampling (of this nature) produces $14k worth of benefits is a worthy question. Judging by the results I've gotten from the Qutest and the HQPlayer, I don't have to be sold on the idea that upsampling does something. I've heard it. I like what I've heard.
No, you have no idea what you heard. You know the conclusions you drew, but not what you heard. That would have required a blind, level matched test with enough trials to rule out chance. As long as you don't want to go there, you have no reliable evidence, for us or yourself.
 

BDWoody

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I agree with that criticism. Either people can hear all the way down to -300 dB or they can't. If they can't, his statement is mere puffery.

Do you have any concept of how small that number is?

It's in the same realm as hearing a fly fart from across the galaxy.

It's that kind of absurd claim that makes his whole schtick distasteful.
 

wwenze

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Reference signal 80dB, minus 300dB = -220dB SPL

This level of SPL is generated by air vibrating over a distance less than 10^-22 times the diameter of the air molecule. Or around 100x Planck's length. If the reference signal is less than 60dB, then -300dB would be smaller than Planck's length. Can the human ear can detect movements smaller than Planck's length?
 

BigEarsBill

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Duplication? Why don't you ask the company designer to show you measurements otherwise. He has the same analyzer I have. Why doesn't he show those measurements? Answer: they don't look good compared to other products at a fraction of its cost.
Yeah, I don't buy Watts' explanation that he hasn't read your post or looked at your graphs. I've seen others use this tactic, where they avoid answering an accusation by saying they haven't seen it. I get that. Your "why" is just conjecture. Sure, if they can't produce better results, that would be one reason not to post results of their own. Another is simply that you're not that important to them. Chord is selling these $14,000 products and they can continue to sell them without engaging with you in a debate. Answering your post would put you on equal footing. It's why Donald Trump doesn't show up to the Republican debates.

But it still leaves your results unduplicated, unless, of course, somebody else has made the same measurements. Isn't that how experiments work? Somebody releases findings, which are then peer-reviewed. I don't have your equipment so I couldn't do it (though I appreciate that you've taken the time to make these measurements). Surely, somebody in this community has also made these measurements. That would help, in terms of confirming your findings.

I'm not saying this to insult you. I'm just asking if anybody else has done the same testing and reached the same results. If we're going to base our entire assessment of the Chord Dave on the results you're posting, and not on what it actually sounds like, it would at least be nice to know if anybody has confirmed your measurements.

Even if somebody has (and I'd like to hear from somebody who has), this is one unit, which you borrowed from somebody else (an objection you had against those reviewers who gave their assessment of the Dave after borrowing a unit from someone in their community or from a vendor). There isn't a product out there that hasn't had quality variances in its roll-outs. Maybe the unit you tested had issues. That doesn't mean all the units being sold have the same issues. You'd hope that a $14k DAC/amp would be entirely free of issues but I'm not that optimistic. There are $50,000 vehicles that have had unit issues.

If somebody tested another unit, we'd be up to two. Imagine how much more scientific that would be? Does your science have room for more than one test by one guy on one unit?

But even if we woke up tomorrow and 800 people posted their results, and all of them turned out to duplicate your measurements - down to a one - we still have to answer another question: Can you hear any of this jitter? Did it have any impact on your experience listening to the Dave? Did it take away from the sonic pleasures of the Dave? Were there any? What did the Dave sound like? What could you compare it to? Do you have anything other than these graphs to tell me what the Dave sounded like?
 

BigEarsBill

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Do you have any concept of how small that number is?

It's in the same realm as hearing a fly fart from across the galaxy.

It's that kind of absurd claim that makes his whole schtick distasteful.
I agree. You can clearly see that there are two Rob Watts. One is an engineer. The other is a salesman. I don't have Amir's equipment and even I have difficulty believing human beings can hear flies fart across the galaxy. Come to think of it, I'm glad we can't. Watts' claim is not credible, though it's a handy stick to beat him with. Since he said humans can hear these fly farts, anyone wanting to trash him can show graphs of fly farts. But that doesn't mean we can hear them - one way or the other.

That's why I continue to ask if anybody has actually heard the Dave and what it sounded like. Someone who has heard the Dave would be in a position to tell me whether the ride was ruined by assorted fly farts. They'd also be able to tell me what the Dave actually sounded like. This my be a case of a tech that provides benefits, but the benefits are undermined by the fly farts. It may be a case of a tech that provides absolutely no benefits anybody can hear. I'd love to hear from anyone in this community who has spent five minutes with the Dave.
 

wwenze

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Ask the fly, it has heard the Dave and couldn't tell the difference from its farts.
 

BigEarsBill

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Both can lead to faulty conclusions.

A single graph doesn't tell you much. But if you make a well-thought-out suite of graphs and look at them in the light of reasonable estimates of the thresholds of human hearing, you can rather safely make conclusions with minimal risk of fault.

Human hearing used as a measument instrument is massively susceptible to error from both bias and wrongful conclusions about cause and effect. If you want to use listening as a substitute for rigorous measurements and want to reach the same low risk of error, then there's no way around equally rigorous listening tests with double blinding and controls.
Do we have any equally rigorous listening tests with double blinding and controls? I've never heard the Chord Dave. I'm asking if anybody here has heard it. All we have are some graphs of one test, conducted by one tester, on one device - and I'm not certain the jitter in question is at a level anybody can actually hear. I've heard what reviewers and salesman have to say. I'd like to hear what the more skeptical have to say. If nothing else, I'd like to know if anybody can hear this jitter.
 

PierreV

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I heard it at one dealer, on Audeze cans, don't remember which one. Not a comparative test.
Except for the looks, nothing memorable.

Still, one thing I can say for sure: no farts.
 

BigEarsBill

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You can't hear the taps either but clearly you are enamored by them.
Ah, the straw man. Come on, Amir. Let's not inch toward ad hominem. I didn't claim I could hear taps. That's just some term used to explain or quantify the number of runs performed in upsampling, which I can't hear either. Are you questioning whether upsampling is done? Surely, that isn't unicorn tears. What does the box do? Presumably, it performs upsampling. Does the upsampling improve the subjective experience? I'm not sure how we'd graph that, do you?

All I can say is I've heard the Mojo, the Mojo2 and the Qutest, all of which use upsampling. I don't claim to understand all of the ins and outs of upsampling but I can hear a difference. I don't know if it's worth $14k, but I get it. Listening to the $300 HQPlayer, I hear it, though in that case, $300 is not such an enormous sum to spend. There's a guy on YouTube who's running A/B tests of a system with and without upsampling. It's not a double-blind test. Nor is it a night and day difference. It's easier to hear a difference with certain tracks and it's more obvious in reverse, that is, you can hear it lose something when the M Scaler is not engaged.

The guy in the video felt vindicated, as if he'd shown us all a big difference. Clearly, it was bigger to him. Then again, he wasn't listening to a room recording of someone's sound system through whatever compression they use in YouTube videos. But even on my end, I heard something. I wasn't in the room or rocking my Susvara. But I heard it.

I still have questions about upsampling, whether it's the best way to go, even if I like the result. What if what I'm hearing is just the result of DSP? How many times has somebody thought their music had been enhanced when all they were hearing was some bit of psychoacoustics? You can create a stereo effect with a comb filter. That doesn't mean the recording was in stereo. You can create the illusion of a larger soundstage. You can fool people into thinking this headphone or that amp has captured more detail by simply boosting the treble, in the right places.

I'm not enamored with the taps. I'm simply saying that this is Chord's strategy. It's what they're selling. They're selling machines that upsample. The way they keep score is to point to the number of taps. That, by itself, doesn't prove that their boxes are better. It's simply what they're offering the consumer. HQPlayer does the same thing, but you have to provide the PC. It's also a lot less plug-and-play. It's a firehose of filters. That device has also produced effects I like, and at a much more attractive cost, though I still question if what I'm hearing is better, in terms of anything substantial (like better transients and timing) or simply more audio magic brought to you by DSP.

You measured the Chord. These are your measurements we're going over. Did you listen to the unit at all? What did it sound like? Can you describe what you heard? Most importantly, did you hear any of this jitter? Did it interfere, in any way you can describe, with your listening experience? I'm asking because the graphs suggest it was at a volume I'm not sure I would hear or notice. Did you? If not, did it really take away from the listening experience? And speaking of that experience, was it any good to begin with?

Obviously, if the jitter isn't noticeable, then the jitter issue is merely academic. Why would I care about something I cannot hear? I know Rob Watts claims we can hear heavy breathing on Pluto, but that's like asking Steve Jobs for an objective assessment of the Lisa. I'm asking you. Did you hear this jitter? I'm also asking if it undermined your listening experience with the Dave and whether that experience was any good to begin with?
 
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BigEarsBill

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No, you have no idea what you heard. You know the conclusions you drew, but not what you heard. That would have required a blind, level matched test with enough trials to rule out chance. As long as you don't want to go there, you have no reliable evidence, for us or yourself.
No, YOU have no idea what I heard. I don't need the formality of double-blind tests to convince me of what I heard. I need all that to convince YOU. That's fine. I'm not expecting you to rely on what I heard. Nor do I need your validation of my own experience.

Scrolling up, I did see a reply where you shared your personal listening experience with the Dave. That's what I was looking for. Thank you for sharing that.
 
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BigEarsBill

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I did in my review of DAVE:

"CHORD DAVE Listening Tests
I started my testing with my Dan Clark Stealth headphone which is the same one the DAC designer prefers. At low to medium volumes, the sound was excellent and I could not detect any impairments. Crank up the volume though and the sound proceeds to get shrill and congested. This is a difficult to drive headphone but again, for the kind of money you are paying, I don't expect compromises.

Switching to Sennheiser HD650 did not improve the situation much as predicted from measurements (not enough power for the class). Again at low to medium levels there was nothing to complain about. Crank it up though and shrillness and high frequency accentuation became way too much. Using DAVE DAC to drive the Topping A90 Discrete remedied that problem.

Overall, I could detect no magic or special qualities attributed to the filtering of the DAC. At low to medium levels it sounded like other DAC/Amps I have tested."


So there. But you seem to be shopping for answers you like, not those that can be backed by solid objective engineering and measurements. We can't help you there.
Well, I was asking whether you can hear this jitter you found. I don't think that was an unreasonable question. If the jitter is noticeable, that would be a bigger deal than if it's something you can't hear. I don't need solid objective engineering and measurements to know if I heard something, nor should you.
 

Music1969

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Did you listen to the unit at all? What did it sound like? Can you describe what you heard? Most importantly, did you hear any of this jitter? Did it interfere, in any way you can describe, with your listening experience?
You are going in circles. He answered these questions to you already. Did you read it?

See post #41
 

amirm

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But it still leaves your results unduplicated, unless, of course, somebody else has made the same measurements. Isn't that how experiments work?
No. We are not talking about a novel test/results that has not been done for decades. We are talking about measurements that have been run on 450+ DACs by someone, me, with that level of experience and credibility. A number of manufacturers have cried foul over my measurements but none have succeeded to demonstrate using their measurements that the answer is different. Further, expert members here have repeated some of my measurements.

Rob knows and has noted and responded to my measurements. That he doesn't show a quick measurement to dispute my results should tell you that he doesn't have a better answer.

As to him not caring, sure, he may be that way. But you should care. Care about facts.
 

amirm

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Well, I was asking whether you can hear this jitter you found. I don't think that was an unreasonable question. If the jitter is noticeable, that would be a bigger deal than if it's something you can't hear. I don't need solid objective engineering and measurements to know if I heard something, nor should you.
No, I didn't hear said jitter. But I also didn't hear any benefit to its core value prop: that its high tap filter provides such magic and this and that audiophile hears it with ease.

As to you, no you don't need solid engineering. You do need to show that you only used your ears. Otherwise you are just wasting our time with empty arguments that have no value.
 

Ron Texas

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Delta Sigma chips are transparent today. Anyone who buys an expensive DAC with custom circuitry simply has money burning a hole in their pocket.
 

amirm

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No, YOU have no idea what I heard. I don't need the formality of double-blind tests to convince me of what I heard. I need all that to convince YOU. That's fine. I'm not expecting you to rely on what I heard. Nor do I need your validation of my own experience.
You have entered a thread, attempting to prove something. We have told you what it is required to prove that. Now you claim that you are only talking about convincing yourself of something? Of what value is that to anyone here?

As for yourself, I am helping you advance your understanding of your perception. I suspect you want us to have an open mind about Dave. Why don't you have an open mind about this topic? Surely you want to know what you are perceiving is real, or not.
 

BigEarsBill

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You have entered a thread, attempting to prove something. We have told you what it is required to prove that. Now you claim that you are only talking about convincing yourself of something? Of what value is that to anyone here?

As for yourself, I am helping you advance your understanding of your perception. I suspect you want us to have an open mind about Dave. Why don't you have an open mind about this topic? Surely you want to know what you are perceiving is real, or not.
I did not come here attempting to prove anything. I came here with questions. You didn't like my questions. Now you're saying I don't have an open mind. I do have an open mind. I don't have a Dave. I didn't say I was buying a Dave. I didn't say you were wrong about Dave. I asked you about the jitter and whether you could hear it, whether it had any noticeable effect. If anything, I was expecting a more straight-forward answer.
 

Keith_W

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Who is providing a comparable number of taps to the Dave? What's their price?

Would you be able to explain why this is important? I am genuinely curious.

Also, I do think that Chord products have a place in the market, contrary to all those who think it is overpriced. They are well made, with machined enclosures and not stamped metal. They are made in the UK and not China. And some people take issue with the styling, I do not. I acknowledge that they offer the same performance as products 1/5 of the price or less, but whether you find something expensive or not depends on your financial position. For me, the "not made in China" is reason enough (I don't want to get into the reasons why on this thread as they are political and not audio related!). I don't mind the price of a Chord Mojo, but a Chord Dave is another story ... for me at least.
 
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