How Deep Must the Bass Be?

[Robbo99999]

Drinking is sloppy stuff. Totally different experience, but requires experience.

I wouldn't drive or ride my motorcycle or operate heavy machinery or sawing tools with sativa, of course, but for writing and focus on intellectual exercises it really can be a booster... if done judiciously. And we're all different in the way we process stuff.

Well, ok, you have to have your own thoughts on it, just I'm not gonna be convinced that it can help re making useful/accurate listening assessments of audio in terms of comparing EQ's / comparing systems, headphones, etc. I can only see it altering perceptions which is exactly not what you want when you're making judgements - you don't want the canvas to be altering just in your own mind! But yeah, I'm happy to disagree, we have to create our own opinion on things after having discussed anything.

 

[krabapple]

You'd b surprised how much judicious sativa "high" actually relaxes you and allows you to completely focus, both in a sensory and even in a thinking way. It can sharpen your senses and your thinking. Indica, on the other hand, not so much - at least for me it just makes me lazy and sleepy, which is why I never use it (unless I want to knock myself out and avoid insomnia).

I would be wary of how well self-reports actually track things like 'focus' and 'sharpened senses'.

When such claims for e.g. Adderall were put under real test, where heightened 'focus' or 'sharpness' have to show better performance rather than just be reported, they didn't hold up.

IOW feeling like you are more focused or sharper than when not high, may be the actual effect , rather than being the actual case.

 

[pablolie]

Well, ok, you have to have your own thoughts on it, just I'm not gonna be convinced that it can help re making useful/accurate listening assessments of audio in terms of comparing EQ's / comparing systems, headphones, etc. I can only see it altering perceptions which is exactly not what you want when you're making judgements - you don't want the canvas to be altering just in your own mind! But yeah, I'm happy to disagree, we have to create our own opinion on things after having discussed anything.

It in no way impairs judgement, and it can improve your perception. If you love music, you'd be surprised to learn how much of it has been written or performed with slight enhancements to standard human capabilities. Tragically though, some artists keep amping up the envelope and destroy themselves.

I'd say in judging equipment, initially I very much agree with you. In enjoying it, though, things can be different.

 

[Flaesh]

like this one

I remember that you like to take your speakers outdoors. But for the home space, the calculator is quite irrelevant. See link in signature.

 

[rdenney]

As a musician, I suffer from so-called "essential tremor," which becomes far worse in the presence of the adrenalin rush that I feel before performance. This has been debilitating to musical performance for me. My doctor prescribed Propanolol, which is known in the trade as the "audition drug", and at first I thought it helped. But I realized that at the same time it reduced the tremor, it also elevated the mood in such a way that disconnected my confidence and my control, leading me to confidently attempt things outside my technique even without considering the tremor.

Since then, I have discovered that alcohol, in one careful dose (that is, one shot 15 minutes before performance), has the same salutary effect by minimizing the adrenalin reaction without boosting the confidence. (Two shots is a whole other thing.) It took considerable practice to determine the exactly correct amount. In fact, I still conduct necessary experimentation.

I conduct these experiments frequently while listening to music, because knowledge is important. Doing so does not, however, improve the bass response of my speakers.

Rick "practice, practice, practice" Denney

 

[MoreWatts]

You'd b surprised how much judicious sativa "high" actually relaxes you and allows you to completely focus, both in a sensory and even in a thinking way. It can sharpen your senses and your thinking. Indica, on the other hand, not so much - at least for me it just makes me lazy and sleepy, which is why I never use it (unless I want to knock myself out and avoid insomnia).

These sativa/indica purported differences are left over from the days when smoking actual herb, with 10-25% THC, was more common. These differences in effects were thought to occur from the >100 other compounds (including CBD/CBN - read on) generated when cannabis herb is burned. The solutions in modern vape cartridges are all >90% THC, so there is little room for real differences in effect. The relaxing component of cannabis is CBD/CBN, and cannabis products, including vape cartridges, have various amounts of this to modulate this effect. You can buy cannabis products without CBD/CBN (all THC), all the way to products that have twice as much CBD/CBN as THC, 2:1, or even CBD only. This is the modern way to shop for cannabis effects.

 

[gnarly]

I remember that you like to take your speakers outdoors. But for the home space, the calculator is quite irrelevant. See link in signature.

I love your double bass array....sounds much more appealing to me than MSO. Hope to be able to try it someday, in a purpose built room.

Pls correct me if I'm wrong...

I see a DBA as essentially being active bass asportation along the rear wall. Cant see how it has much of anything to do with how low and how loud the front array is designed for.
Which means low end extension and SPL still just come down to displacement, along with room gain, & perhaps corner loading etc,


The only rooms I've been in that would support loading at 6-7Hz have been when all walls, floor, and ceiling are made of concrete. Really low freq seems to travel though about any other type construction. So I'm not real on board with room gain.
Corner loading can be real though, ime. Hey, you should have heard double stacked Labhorns, firing into a big room's corner that i used to have. Vision blurring Lol.

Anyway, i think it's a mistake to see the calculator as irrelevant for indoors.....

 

[Doodski]

These sativa/indica purported differences are left over from the days when smoking actual herb, with 10-25% THC, was more common. These differences in effects were thought to occur from the >100 other compounds (including CBD/CBN - read on) generated when cannabis herb is burned. The solutions in modern vape cartridges are all >90% THC, so there is little room for real differences in effect. The relaxing component of cannabis is CBD/CBN, and cannabis products, including vape cartridges, have various amounts of this to modulate this effect. You can buy cannabis products without CBD/CBN (all THC), all the way to products that have twice as much CBD/CBN as THC, 2:1. This is the modern way to shop for cannabis effects.

I buy stuff with a low CBD because I read that it is counterproductive to the THC effect. I was told that CBD seems to be a bit snake oil'ishy for recreational use. What do you think of that?

 

[NIN]

Thanks for the photo. I'm glad I asked for a picture! That's quite an unusual setup. The speakers look like they're set up like musicians on a stage. In practice, you could hold concerts for speakers with this arrangement.

The speaker (L, R) are placed to give a 23% degree listening angle from the sweetspot to the speakers, for maximum opening for stereophonic rendering. Works really well according to me.

 

[pablolie]

I buy stuff with a low CBD because I read that it is counterproductive to the THC effect. I was told that CBD seems to be a bit snake oil'ishy for recreational use. What do you think of that?

We probably should create a new topic somewhere to discuss the topic, and leave this one to its original purpose.

I use tinctures as well as vaping.

I think with vaping we all like high quality THC. That said, I find the differences can be huge, ranging from effect (focus vs sedative) vs taste (i don't like smoke harshness).

In tinctures, supposedly CBD is a very effective inflammation fighter. Plus I use it to sleep. Woks like a charm.

Then there is also RSO, which is a thick paste, and which supposedly is a powerful cancer fighter, but will also lay you *out* cold.

 

[MoreWatts]

@Doodski, I know the higher CBD/CBN %s are marketed towards the sleep/anxiety/medical users. I don't know that CBD/CBN 'lessens' the THC effect, it probably just increases the probability of 'couch lock.'

I haven't looked recently, but double-blind tests of cannabis effects for many medicinal uses don't seem to hold up to myth. I don't know about sleep/anxiety studies, but I haven't really searched.

@pablolie, tinctures/infusions also have various THC/CBD ratios. Most are usually high CBD, for medicinal people who can't smoke/vape. The dispensary I use only has 1 all THC tincture, but several with various THC/CBD ratios. FYI, most THC 'tinctures' are actually 'infusions.' Tinctures are dissolved in alcohol, infusions are dissolved in oils. The cannabis industry doesn't seem to follow this nomenclature correctly.

Yeah, probably oughta move this to 1 of 4 cannabis threads I found with a search...

 

[Sokel]

Oddly I will get back on topic

I will never compromise with something that is not able to rubble the very beginning of this:

Fritz Reiner, Chicago Symphony Orchestra - Fritz Reiner - The Complete RCA Album Collection

View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 2013 CD release of "Fritz Reiner - The Complete RCA Album Collection" on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

I mean,apart from the technical side and beauty,it's historical.
It would be a pity for people to enjoy it back in the 50's and we argue if we should be able to play it today in all it's grandeur!

Edit:Link
Edit2: For those unfamiliar,it's a 70 (yes,seventy) years old recording and apart from lows,we still argue about today's quality of recordings.
I hardly call that evolution.

 

[dualazmak]

BTW, for the measurements of very low Fq sound (I mean 10 Hz to 50 Hz zone) and very high Fq sound (I mean ca. 8 kHz to 22 kHz/32 kHz zone), we need to check and calibrate our measurement microphone for getting reliable and reproducible objective house Fq curves as well as for getting precise "house" time alignment data at your listening position.

This is critical if we would like to discuss about our/your house Fq response curves not only on this thread but also on entire ASR and other audio forums.

Do you people here on this thread have objective proof and calibration data, hopefully by periodical checks, on your measurement microphone?

I recently (re-)calibrated my microphone (ref. here) which deeply reminded/reconfirmed the importance of this issue, even though microphone measured house Fq curve is only one of the many factors for 16 Hz listening sensations (ref. here).

 

[pablolie]

Oddly I will get back on topic

I will never compromise with something that is not able to rubble the very beginning of this:

Fritz Reiner, Chicago Symphony Orchestra - Fritz Reiner - The Complete RCA Album Collection

View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 2013 CD release of "Fritz Reiner - The Complete RCA Album Collection" on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

I mean,apart from the technical side and beauty,it's historical.
It would be a pity for people to enjoy it back in the 50's and we argue if we should be able to play it today in all it's grandeur!

Edit:Link
Edit2: For those unfamiliar,it's a 70 (yes,seventy) years old recording and apart from lows,we still argue about today's quality of recordings.
I hardly call that evolution.

I still use Karl Munchinger's rendition of Pachelbel's Canon as a reference, analog era hiss be d*mned. It is a very unique and powerful -if probably not Baroque era precise- arrangement using a full set of strings that are laid out to be powerful and force your breathing to adapt. Recorded in 1960 and he is credited with reviving it.

 

[rdenney]

Heh. I just listened to that on my office system, which sports an Adcom GFA535 amp and two (count 'em!) two Pioneer BS22LR speakers. I doubt these speakers have much of anything below about 50 Hz (the ports are tuned to 70 and the woofers are a whopping 4") and yet I could still clearly hear the organ pedal that opens the work.

So, I looked up the score. The score shows the organ playing a low C1 (32.7 Hz as written) and marked for the pedal. The actual frequency will depend on what pedal stops were available, but assuming a closed 16-foot diapason or an open 32-foot diapason, the actual frequency would be 16 Hz. I seriously doubt there is any 16-Hz content on that recording, but I don't have the software hand on this computer to analyze it.

The score also includes the contrabassoon on the 32.7-Hz C1, a roll on the bass drum, and a tremolo in the string basses marked for both the C1 and the C2 (but string bass music is written an octave higher than played). A string bass needs the low C extension to play that C1, so I assumed the part is marked for instruments with and without that extension.

Meaning: Most of what people hear is well not the fundamental frequency of the pitches being played. And that's why I could hear it clearly on my little Pioneer speakers with their 4" woofers.

In that excerpt, where I missed good bass response was not on that note, which is really just a droning rattle as much as anything, but the low C1 played at fortissimo on the tuba in the concluding chord. The score is marked "basstuba" on that part, and in Europe might at the time have been played on an F tuba with the fourth valve. But when Fritz Reiner was making those recordings with the Chicago Symphony, the tuba player was the famous (to tuba players) Arnold Jacobs, and he was playing his enormously fat grand orchestral tuba, only two of which were made by the York Band Instrument Company in Grand Rapids. Both of those instruments are now owned by the CSO and Gene Pokorny still plays one of them in the orchestra. Jake was a truly world-class performer who established that style of tuba as the standard American orchestral instrument on the strength of his musicianship. THAT's what needs the subwoofer.

Rick "owns a Holton 345 modeled on those two Yorks" Denney

 

[Axo1989]

1) You can ask around to see if anyone has the ouput/extension/filtering capabilites in your vicinity that would let you experience various configurations. Look for other enthusiasts, a studio with a high-performance playback system, etc.
2) Invest in the equipment to do the test yourself. This option allows you to live with and experiment with different configurations and source material at your leisure. Used and resellable gear would minimize risk and costs.
3) Make a decision based on the available research and subjective feedback of other listeners.

There's no magic solution; the options above are what we've all had to navigate. And I personally don’t believe headphones can answer the question for you.

One other consideration that I haven't seen mentioned (but could have easily missed) is the type of flooring the listener and system will be on. Rigid basement concrete can yield tighter sounding bass when well implemented, but with less tactile feedback; this increases the SPL requirements to experience infrasound. A suspended floor (especially suspended wood floors) add a tactile sensation to all bass, including infrasound, which, in my experience, reduces the SPL requirements.

Overall I prefer bass on a rigid concrete floor where the room isn't shaking and resonating, others have the opposite preference. At times I wish I could switch back and forth.

Bass shakers are another option to consider; there's no audible experience but the tactile sensation is delivered.

Interesting about the floor differences. My usual/previous room was timber on wooden joists, my temporary room is tatami on timber slats. When I set up the old room again, there will be tatami.

As for seat shakers, I'm quite taken by this Inkognito setup (upside-down for the photo iirc):

*not my room or main speaker choice (in case the image triggers incidental B&W dysphoria) I think the image was from @sigbergaudio in another thread. I don't in fact have subs at all, my enjoyment of this thread is somewhat vicarious: my main speakers do 25 Hz nicely in-room but fall away below that. So nice audio but often insufficiently visceral. It's on the eventual to do list.

 

[Bugal1998]

Interesting about the floor differences. My usual/previous room was timber on wooden joists, my temporary room is tatami on timber slats. When I set up the old room again, there will be tatami.

As for seat shakers, I'm quite taken by this Inkognito setup (upside-down for the photo iirc):

View attachment 324825

*not my room or main speaker choice (in case the image triggers incidental B&W dysphoria) I think the image was from @sigbergaudio in another thread. I don't in fact have subs at all, my enjoyment of this thread is somewhat vicarious: my main speakers do 25 Hz nicely in-room but fall away below that. So nice audio but often insufficiently visceral. It's on the eventual to do list.

Those are my subjective experiences with different floors; the SPL differences are simply due to more physical sound transmission through the floor with suspended floors (in both cases they were the second floor rooms of residential homes), so there's little or no dependency on the audibility of infrasound. The physical sensation adds to the audible sensation with wood floors as well, with the vibration making it seem as though the bass is louder and more intrusive. My preferred bass room curve on concrete floors is about 1.5db higher than on wood floors.

Cool idea for the shakers! And don't worry, there's no B&W (or any other speaker) dysphoria on my end.

 

[Bugal1998]

BTW, for the measurements of very low Fq sound (I mean 10 Hz to 50 Hz zone) and very high Fq sound (I mean ca. 8 kHz to 22 kHz/32 kHz zone), we need to check and calibrate our measurement microphone for getting reliable and reproducible objective house Fq curves as well as for getting precise "house" time alignment data at your listening position.

This is critical if we would like to discuss about our/your house Fq response curves not only on this thread but also on entire ASR and other audio forums.

Do you people here on this thread have objective proof and calibration data, hopefully by periodical checks, on your measurement microphone?

I recently (re-)calibrated my microphone (ref. here) which deeply reminded/reconfirmed the importance of this issue, even though microphone measured house Fq curve is only one of the many factors for 16 Hz listening sensations (ref. here).

While I agree that would absolutely be ideal, if that's the criteria for discussion, there will be a lot less discussion.

My calibrated microphone recently broke (as reported in another thread), so I'm procuring another; will be interesting to see if the measurements are aligned. Not sure what your criteria is for calibration data... I still won't have a NIST traceable mic.

I personally think if someone has measured their system output in good faith with a quality (and ideally calibrated) mic, it's suitable for a casual forum discussion. It's not like we're producing music or submitting threads for academic peer review. That said, I do want as much accuracy as is reasonable for my own purposes in my room.

 

[Doodski]

I still won't have a NIST traceable mic.

I'm just curious and am interested in what it takes to get a NIST traceable mic. What expense?

 

[pablolie]

I honestly find it a little funny to see how ASR arguments (d)evolve into measurement d__k size contests, sorry. While there is genuine value to that quite often, I just have to smirk when eventually someone in a supposedly science-led forum talks about 6Hz at 130dB SPL with 0.0002% THD being a real reference point and anything else being unlistenable and unrealistic etc. :-D