How Deep Must the Bass Be?

[Waxx]

I come from a music scene where bass goes to the low 30's (dub, jungle and similar music styles) and soundsystems in dances are custom build because mainstream systems are tuned to 40hz (a few exceptions like Danley Labs, Void and Function One are exceptions). And it makes a difference, also for other music when a system goes that low. Even for jazz or chambre music, the music sounds different on my big system (F3 of 31Hz) compared to my office system (F3 of 45Hz). I don't think below 30Hz is needed (i had subs that went lower, and got rid of them as i felt it was not needed), but 30Hz is what i want.

For general pop music, the bass going to 40Hz is enough in most cases. You could go lower, but you won't miss much as there is not that much. But for more underground, especially electronic music and some forms of classical, it does make a big difference. For HT 20Hz is the limit mostly (at least offically).

 

[computer-audiophile]

and some forms of classical, it does make a big difference

Can you give me an example of a classical music recording that benefits from extreme low bass? That would be interesting!

I do have some classical organ pieces where you might think that, but in practice I can't play them realistically at home anyway. That would shake the building. Even in churches where organ concerts take place, there are already room modes swirling around in the very low registers. Incidentally, I have already been to one or two such recording sessions and know the difference between listening on location and listening to a recording in the studio or at home afterwards.

 

[burkm]

20Hz to 20kHz is more than you need. That’s what we can hear not what is found in music.

While you can find organ music that goes down below 20 Hz, I cannot say that I routinely listen to music containing pipe organs. I do listen to piano.

Then, thinking about pianos, how many pieces use the very lowest or very highest note of the piano? It’s actually quite rare to use A0 but two mainstream pieces I know of are

• The Bells of Notre Dame from the Disney movie The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
• The Heart Asks Pleasure First from the movie The Piano.

But these are movie soundtracks, so you get to take advantage of LFE channel delivering that lowest note

Chopin’s Fantasie Impromptu goes down to 35 Hz. So in my mind, getting down to 35-40 Hz is full range for my music and compromises can be made because the question that then arises is if giving up some bass extension results in a better speaker elsewhere?

On the other hand, bass for movies is unlimited in appetite. This doesn’t mean that you need high SPLs just low extension.

Gran Turismo, the movie, is mediocre story telling but a sonic extravaganza. I saw it in “4DX” 6 axis motion which was great as well. I imagine tons of bass helps with the visceral element.

In Top Gun: Maverick, when Darkstar fires its afterburners, you need a lot of extension to replicate the feeling you get at an airshow.

THE REAL QUESTION
Once Dirac ART and Trinnov Waveforming are in play, don’t we want our main speakers to go as deep as the lowest room node so we have the ability to actively manipulate the room sound?

In that case, since positioning a subwoofer in every region of the room is harder than going with slightly larger full range speakers, the advice may be very different.

Ist not even 20 - 20kHz, because here the listeners age comes into play. A person in his mid 40's might be able to hear a (statistical) max. of around 13 kHz (?). TThere is even a formular to calculate the (statisticla relevant) upper limit of ones hearing. Thus the upper octave is not available - more or less - by everyone. I usually smile, when people proclaim, that a speaker, amp or even cable is not producing 20 kHz straight (and flat) as a ruler, because this might be for many just a theoretical thing...
Most measuring mikes have problems recording straight up to 20 kHz (room acoustics not even considered), whilst recording the lowest octave with minimal deviation is not hindered by this

 

[Waxx]

Can you give me an example of a classical music recording that benefits from extreme low bass? That would be interesting!

I do have some classical organ pieces where you might think that, but in practice I can't play them realistically at home anyway. That would shake the building. Even in churches where organ concerts take place, there are already room modes swirling around in the very low registers. Incidentally, I have already been to one or two such recording sessions and know the difference between listening on location and listening to a recording in the studio or at home afterwards.

One of my favorite pieces is the Koyaanisqatsi suite by Philip Glass, that is partially used in the experimental movie with the same name by Godfrey Reggio. The movie is released in 1982, but the music was composed more than a decade before. You need the 1998 release to get the full suite (the 1982 release only had the parts used in the movie).

The most known is maybe Also sprach Zarathustra by Richard Strauss, others are César Franck's Chorale No. 3, Symphony No. 3 in C minor, Op. 78 by Camille Saint-Saëns, Symphony No. 5 by Sergei Prokofiev, Symphony 11 by Dmitri Shostakovich, a lot of Mahler symphonies, ...

But to hear them right, you need a speaker set that can go low enough, and where the sub is aligned (physically or electronically) with the main speakers and off course the right room and/or room correction eq. And the whole system needs to go loud enough to get that low sub. My system is just enough for a small room, but i also heared it on big systems (Neumann KH420 with 4x KH870 subs) in big rooms. It won't be like hearing it live, but it will give you a right impression of what live is.

 

[pablolie]

IME a lot of ‘traditional ‘ listeners have never heard low bass, their speakers may nominally produce but so rolled off as to be non existent.
Keith

Then again, some of us have and regard it as completely irrelevant to music. Even 40Hz is more of a warble than a tone.

As I type this, I am playing a 31.5Hz test tone, and I could even do without that.

 

[fpitas]

Even 40Hz is more of a warble than a tone.

Yeah, below about 40Hz I mainly feel the bass. Didn't stop me from EQing flat to 20Hz, just because.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I wrote a bit about this topic here: https://www.sigbergaudio.no/blogs/news/do-you-need-a-subwoofer-for-music-reproduction

 

[pablolie]

One of my favorite pieces is the Koyaanisqatsi suite by Philip Glass, that is partially used in the experimental movie with the same name by Godfrey Reggio. The movie is released in 1982, but the music was composed more than a decade before. You need the 1998 release to get the full suite (the 1982 release only had the parts used in the movie).

The most known is maybe Also sprach Zarathustra by Richard Strauss, others are César Franck's Chorale No. 3, Symphony No. 3 in C minor, Op. 78 by Camille Saint-Saëns, Symphony No. 5 by Sergei Prokofiev, Symphony 11 by Dmitri Shostakovich, a lot of Mahler symphonies, ...

But to hear them right, you need a speaker set that can go low enough, and where the sub is aligned (physically or electronically) with the main speakers and off course the right room and/or room correction eq. And the whole system needs to go loud enough to get that low sub. My system is just enough for a small room, but i also heared it on big systems (Neumann KH420 with 4x KH870 subs) in big rooms. It won't be like hearing it live, but it will give you a right impression of what live is.

I am not quite buying it, sorry. Lowest note in classical orchestra is said to be 27.5Hz (and that is in theory, I doubt you'd find it in any composition). Lowest credible one I have (really) experienced is supposed to be Aaaron Copland ("Fanfare to the Common Man") that originally calls for a truck sized drum that goes down to 30Hz. Needless to say, I bet it is seldom played to that degree of authenticity. Contrabassoon goes down a bit under 30Hz, in theory, but again, I'd like one single example of it being used in a composition. Just because something *can* doesn't mean it always must.

Sure, churchy organ stuff in less than 20 places around the world goes lower, but whether that adds or actively detracts from music is debatable - for one, it is known low frequencies often cause stress and anxiety. Personally, I am not into creepy organ music...

 

[computer-audiophile]

One of my favorite pieces is the Koyaanisqatsi suite by Philip Glass, that is partially used in the experimental movie with the same name by Godfrey Reggio. The movie is released in 1982, but the music was composed more than a decade before. You need the 1998 release to get the full suite (the 1982 release only had the parts used in the movie).

The most known is maybe Also sprach Zarathustra by Richard Strauss, others are César Franck's Chorale No. 3, Symphony No. 3 in C minor, Op. 78 by Camille Saint-Saëns, Symphony No. 5 by Sergei Prokofiev, Symphony 11 by Dmitri Shostakovich, a lot of Mahler symphonies, ...

But to hear them right, you need a speaker set that can go low enough, and where the sub is aligned (physically or electronically) with the main speakers and off course the right room and/or room correction eq. And the whole system needs to go loud enough to get that low sub. My system is just enough for a small room, but i also heared it on big systems (Neumann KH420 with 4x KH870 subs) in big rooms. It won't be like hearing it live, but it will give you a right impression of what live is.

OK, thanks for the examples!

The piece by Philip Glass is indeed a low bass hum. It's electronically generated. Well, if it's meant to be. Some people also like film music, which often contains almost subsonic frequencies. I wouldn't normally want to listen to that.

I can easily listen to the classical pieces you mentioned at home without a subwoofer. I also have some of them on vinyl records. BTW: In the past, phono amplifiers often even had rumble filters.

 

[Chrispy]

Can't imagine just listening to classical music....so limited.

 

[polmuaddib]

Also sprach Zarathustra by Richard Strauss

I have been searching for a version that has deep bass I imagine it has, but I have found no stereo recording that go as low as I expected.
I do have some DVD-Audio multichannel version that comes close, but not so much.
I find more low end in old THX trailers…

 

[Purité Audio]

Then again, some of us have and regard it as completely irrelevant to music. Even 40Hz is more of a warble than a tone.

As I type this, I am playing a 31.5Hz test tone, and I could even do without that.

Test tones are so samey on balance I prefer music.
Keith

 

[egellings]

You forgot Organs at some venues, the can go to 16Hz.
But in a domestic audio setup, well . . .
BTW, Audiophiles insist on 20Hz or less, they EQ the hell out of their system to get it

Most living rooms are not large enough to allow such a low frequency note to actually be heard. Things in the room may shake and rattle, but that's about it. The low-pitched waves are simply too long to fit a whole or half of one into the room. I suppose if you simply pressurize the small room with enough LF power, the room could start to act like a giant headphone, and you might then hear it, I 'spoze.

 

[pablolie]

Test tones are so samey on balance I prefer music.
Keith

And yet they are utterly necessary to tune a system. And also help establish, in isolation, what may contribute to music, and what doesn't.

I don't want to attract a blue whale to mate, and I don't want to hear the Tyrannosaur in Jurassic Park dancing in my living room when I play music.

 

[Purité Audio]

Music comes with them built in.
Keith

 

[computer-audiophile]

Can't imagine just listening to classical music....so limited.

On the contrary, classical composition does not stop, but is developed further by contemporary composers, of which there is so much!

I recently noted the following about this from a composer I met a few days ago:

"Neue Musik, while remaining mindful of its historical roots and preserving its musical heritage, thrives by constantly casting its ear forward into the uncharted realms of the future. In this delicate balance between tradition, the ever-evolving present, and the unknown possibilities of what lies ahead, Neue Musik emerges as a genuine reflection of our current times. It's a testament to the fact that the space bridging the worlds of tradition, the contemporary, and the yet-to-be-discovered future is far from empty; it's a fertile ground for innovation, creativity, and the unending journey of musical exploration."

 

[Purité Audio]

Most living rooms are not large enough to allow such a low frequency note to actually be heard. Things in the room may shake and rattle, but that's about it. The low-pitched waves are simply too long to fit a whole or half of one into the room. I suppose if you simply pressurize the small room with enough LF power, the room could start to act like a giant headphone, and you might then hear it, I 'spoze.

Bass doesn’t work like that, if you think about headphones for example.
Keith

 

[egellings]

Bass doesn’t work like that, if you think about headphones for example.
Keith

How does it work, then?

 

[Multicore]

Piano goes down to 29 hz.

Is that not music?

Not in itself. It can be used in music.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Most living rooms are not large enough to allow such a low frequency note to actually be heard. Things in the room may shake and rattle, but that's about it. The low-pitched waves are simply too long to fit a whole or half of one into the room. I suppose if you simply pressurize the small room with enough LF power, the room could start to act like a giant headphone, and you might then hear it, I 'spoze.

Haha, Good point! You couldn't say it any better.