Why are there no female Audiophiles?

[Killingbeans]

Is life for women this bad, in the west, in 2023? Sure, you could give some examples, but I do feel this is a bit much. I have participated in other forums that have a more even male/female split and I didn't hear talk of women getting 'nice guy' PMs or much inevitable misogyny (anyone who went beyond what was considered decent was dealt with quickly, at least one moderator was female too). I doubt many, if any, would get those PMs here.

I've heard stories about female TicToc users getting their inboxes flooded with death threats, and female YouTubers quitting the business because of similar situations. Granted, those places have a much, much broader demographic, and some of those stories have possibly been sensationalized.

I'd like to think of ASR as a place of inclusiveness where women can engage on equal terms, and where the fear I'm imagining is either unfounded or non existent.

I absolutely hope that my comment turns out to be extremely pessimistic

I don't see why being considerate to women necessitates saying how bad and awful men are. Sure, some are and give a bad name to the rest of us, but the same could be said about the fairer sex too (I hope fairer sex isn't unintentionally sexist). is it right to paint with such broad brush strokes...I don't see how this helps relations between men and women generally speaking?

Point taken.

 

[kemmler3D]

I've heard stories about female TicToc users getting their inboxes flooded with death threats, and female YouTubers quitting the business because of similar situations. Granted, those places have a much, much broader demographic, and some of those stories have possibly been sensationalized.

I'd like to think of ASR as a place of inclusiveness where women can engage on equal terms, and where the fear I'm imagining is either unfounded or non existent.

I absolutely hope that my comment turns out to be extremely pessimistic



Point taken.

The rest of the iceberg we men don't see is the PMs. By all accounts, they can be pretty hair-raising for women that venture into male-dominated online spaces, not just audio ones.

Of course this is not to say many of us would cause trouble in that regard, but it doesn't take many to wreck the experience. How many undesirable PMs would you read before you decided talking about stereo equipment with a bunch of strangers wasn't worth it? You can get 99% of the knowledge without posting, after all.

And, I did mention this in another comment - it can be argued this thread leaves something to be desired in terms of POVs expressed about women, but let's remember ASR is probably one of the better spaces of its type. While most political or politcs-adjacent threads here go relatively poorly IMO, I've been on the internet for a while, and in other places I've seen, they usually go even worse.

When you take that into account, it is not hard to imagine all but a very few women being put off by the online-audiophile environment.

Anecdotally, women will sometimes just play-act as men on forums, specifically to avoid the unwanted PMs, etc. They wouldn't show up at the hifi shows, though, because you can't do that so easily in real life....

Maybe a worthless analogy here also: I carry a purse around. Most people automatically call it a "murse" for some reason. It's just a black bag on a shoulder strap where I keep my wallet, keys, phone, etc. Honestly, wish I had started carrying it a long time ago - I can finally fit my hands in my pockets, and I don't forget to bring sunglasses with me anymore. I also have a little multitool, a pen, earplugs for concerts, a shopping bag, etc.

I'm actually a big advocate of purses for men. You should try it. Cramming all your stuff into your pockets seems stupid once you stop doing it. But you won't find me posting about purses on purse forums or going to purse shows. I have no ambition of buying a better one at some point. They don't interest me in the way audio gear does. I wonder if there's a thread on one of the purse forums wondering about where all the male handbag fans are?

 

[splitting_ears]

Apparently one. You.

I stopped reading much when I saw it was interviews with 6 people one of which was female. Unless they were vetted in some way to be representative that isn't enough people. Actually rather foolish to write a paper based upon that. Skimming through it the information is effectively no better than reading this thread. If I were grading papers of a high school student this wouldn't get a high grade.

The paper I linked earlier is in no way based solely upon interviews. Please read it carefully.

 

[kemmler3D]

It sounds like you're saying that women use their stereo equipment to listen to music, while men use music to listen to their stereo equipment.

I think this is a joke about audiophiles that is "funny 'cuz it's true".

 

[antcollinet]

I've heard stories about female TicToc users getting their inboxes flooded with death threats, and female YouTubers quitting the business because of similar situations.

Pretty much any woman who is vocal online - especially if she has the temerity to have an opinion is subject to similar vitriol from some corners. (See for example gamergate - and pretty much all of twitter now that Mr Musk has down graded all moderation)

In real life we have the toxic tech dude culture in many parts of silicon valley (similar to many other male dominated workspaces)

Just talk to women you (obv not you specifically KB) know about their own experience of co-existing with men in the workplace. (But bear in mind if you've given them even slight past reason not to trust that you'll believe them, they probably won't tell you). If they do tell you, you may find they're minimising it/trivialising it as they do, simply because it is *so* normal.

Having had an attractive woman work for me in a tech role/environment I've witnessed it first hand.

No, of course not all men. Not even a large minority, but way too many in any case.

 

[VintageFlanker]

No, of course not all men. Not even a large minority, but way too many in any case.

They could be 1% or even 5%, it would not matter... The real issue is the remaining 95% that simply refuse to believe that there is a problem to begin with.

This thread has become a significant example of real blindness.

Yes, I said I quit, but I couldn't resist... Have a good night folks (it's almost midnight here).

 

[pseudoid]

Have you ever heard of one buddy turn to another and say "Oh stop it! ...You are such a misogynist!"?

I am guessing the real definition of that word's meaning has been weaponized, yet most men do not even realize it.

misogynist: A misanthrope who dislikes women in particular

I bet not many members here (or anywhere) can even admit to themselves that 'they dislike women'... let alone that men "hate" women!
It was a trope that became a weapon and don't fall for it, don't even try to defend yourself against such shallow arguments, which are only made to aggravate.
And don't start a sentence with "I am not a misogynist but..."

 

[kemmler3D]

They could be 1% or even 5%, it would not matter...

ASR has thousands of members, so it wouldn't take a large percentage to really muck it up. If one can't imagine that (say) 1 in 500 guys might have real issues with women, I think one's imagination unit might be faulty.

Naturally, that is not unique to audio forums, and it's probably worse in other areas online, sure, whatever. But since the space is already heavily male-dominated, any progress in demographic balancing might be rendered fragile in the face of toxic DMs, and so less robust in the face of even a small percentage of miscreants.

 

[dshreter]

Audiophilia is less a hobby than an affliction. This seems just another condition that is more common in men than women, like heart disease, stroke, or alzheimers.

 

[VintageFlanker]

And don't start a sentence with "I am not a misogynist but..."

Of course you won't. Because "I'm not a ----ist, but..." absolutely implies that you indeed are. (No joke here, I really mean it).

Have you ever heard of one buddy turn to another and say "Oh stop it! ...You are such a misogynist!"?

Yes, with actually sexist people. I work almost exclusively with women (>90% of my coworkers) and I never heard such things targeting me. Go figure...

I am guessing the real definition of that word's meaning has been weaponized, yet most men do not even realize it.
misogynist: A misanthrope who dislikes women in particular

Well, I find the French definition to be more subtle, then:

misogyne
adjectif et nom
(grec misogunês)
Qui éprouve du mépris, voire de la haine, pour les femmes ; qui témoigne de ce mépris

It adds the concept of disdain, disregard, contempt (not sure about the exact translation for "mépris" depending on context). Not only "dislike" or "hate"... This thread is just full of examples of contempt for women, I regret.

It was a trope that became a weapon

I am guessing the real definition of that word's meaning has been weaponized

You're actually right. It's now becoming a weapon, indeed. Would you make a little effort by figuring out how it came about ? Please.

 

[Digby]

Of course this is not to say many of us would cause trouble in that regard, but it doesn't take many to wreck the experience. How many undesirable PMs would you read before you decided talking about stereo equipment with a bunch of strangers wasn't worth it? You can get 99% of the knowledge without posting, after all.

Has that gone on here though, where is the evidence for that?

They could be 1% or even 5%, it would not matter... The real issue is the remaining 95% that simply refuse to believe that there is a problem to begin with.

or 0.1%, at what point does it become such a small problem that it is no different from noise? This is a scientific forum after all. I am not talking about tiktok or gaming/dating spheres, where this kind of thing may well be rather too common, but are you really suggesting that there is such behaviour on fora like these? Where is your evidence.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens (divisive character, but I think he has a point here)

Maybe it is because I grew up around what I would consider to be strong women, perhaps even matriarchs of a sort, but this defense of women - that vigorous debate or playful banter would send them running for the exit, I recognise in very few women I know or have met. Some I would never behave in a way I behave with other men, others like to be treated, more or less, like one of the boys, some are in between. You play these things by ear, but generally I don't recognise this description of intense sensitivity that seems to be suggested by some (male) commentators.

There is something of an unspoken suggestion that women are easily upset, so we must tiptoe around anything that might upset them...isn't that a little patronising? I don't see most women to be like this. I wouldn't discuss everything with women, as I would with men (generally speaking), but isn't it some kind of sexism to suggest they need a very particular/specific environment, before they can even dream of discussing things on a forum that is a) without swearing and b) without politics.

In what way could this place be a safer space for discussion, unless it is decided to ban all discussions like this entirely?

I just don't view most women in the way that some here seem to do. The ones I have met are, by and large, not that fragile and we (at ASR) are generally quite a polite bunch, so...I don't know what is expected beyond that, that would somehow have women frequenting this forum in far greater numbers than they currently do?

 

[MattHooper]

No, that is a category error.

How so?

 

[antcollinet]

that vigorous debate or playful banter would send them running for the exit, I recognise in very few women I know or have met

Vigorous debate or playful banter (Bearing in mind that one man's "banter" might be recieved as another woman's harrassment) might not be what we are talking about.

I'm not suggesting it happens here, It would be almost impossible due to the strong moderation - though it might through PM, we have no data because there are no women involved in this discussion as far as I can tell.

But in the wider internet we are talking about repeated threats of sexual violence and death - directed at women just because they are in the public eye. I've seen many similar directed at women simply because they participate in male dominated spaces.

I'd guess just the fact this space is male dominated would be enough to put many women off.

I did a search - there were thousands of links (EDIT : No, there were 59 million). This was the third.

Disagreeing with a Woman: Threats of Rape and Violence -

On 4th June 2021 the Daily Telegraph published an article on concerns about the Stonewall Equality Diversity Champions programme. The article included a couple of short quotations from me. On 7th June 2021 I received a long, intense email addressed to my work email account from a reader of the...

www.legalfeminist.org.uk

After expressing some general concerns and criticisms of my character, knowledge, legitimacy, family history and ethics, the writer opined that he (I presume) would be able to change my opinion if he were given the opportunity. He proposed to change my mind through rape and violence – conduct that would result in more than 10 years in prison if it took place. Included were 3 separate photos illustrating different young women being whipped and sexually assaulted.

and

ll surveys of women who are MPs, journalists, television presenters, columnists or otherwise publicly visible demonstrate that they attract disproportionately aggressive and misogynistic responses such as these.

How much of that would it take to dissuade the average women who doesn't need to participate for work - to duck out from wherever it was encountered? Or just not to bother in the first place if she perceived the risk as being there?

 

[VintageFlanker]

or 0.1%, at what point does it become such a small problem that it is no different from noise? This is a scientific forum after all. I am not talking about tiktok or gaming/dating spheres, where this kind of thing may well be rather too common,

Hum, sorry for the misunderstanding. It was a general statement, absolutely not about this forum (nor others) at all, but about actual real life. What's happening just about every day to many women.

but are you really suggesting that there is such behaviour on fora like these?

Maybe, maybe not. I honestly have no clue.

Where is your evidence.

About ASR in particular ? None. About what's happening out there ? The fact that I had and have to deal all day with domestic violences, treats, sexual and psychological harassment, rapes, or sometimes, hopefully very rarely, suicides and actual murders. For the record, because I'm not sure that many people realised it: I'm a social worker. But yes, ASR or Audio forums in general are way outside my professional prerogatives, so I will stop there.

 

[theREALdotnet]

It adds the concept of disdain, disregard, contempt (not sure about the exact translation for "mepris" depending on context).

For the 1963 movie they decided to go with “contempt”

Interestingly, in that movie the contempt went the other way.

 

[Axo1989]

Well answers from one woman in the paper linked. We have had one woman reply in this thread.

Or two, if you count the author. She does count, right?

Has that gone on here though, where is the evidence for that?

or 0.1%, at what point does it become such a small problem that it is no different from noise? This is a scientific forum after all. I am not talking about tiktok or gaming/dating spheres, where this kind of thing may well be rather too common, but are you really suggesting that there is such behaviour on fora like these? Where is your evidence.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens (divisive character, but I think he has a point here)

Maybe it is because I grew up around what I would consider to be strong women, perhaps even matriarchs of a sort, but this defense of women - that vigorous debate or playful banter would send them running for the exit, I recognise in very few women I know or have met. Some I would never behave in a way I behave with other men, others like to be treated, more or less, like one of the boys, some are in between. You play these things by ear, but generally I don't recognise this description of intense sensitivity that seems to be suggested by some (male) commentators.

There is something of an unspoken suggestion that women are easily upset, so we must tiptoe around anything that might upset them...isn't that a little patronising? I don't see most women to be like this. I wouldn't discuss everything with women, as I would with men (generally speaking), but isn't it some kind of sexism to suggest they need a very particular/specific environment, before they can even dream of discussing things on a forum that is a) without swearing and b) without politics.

In what way could this place be a safer space for discussion, unless it is decided to ban all discussions like this entirely?

I just don't view most women in the way that some here seem to do. The ones I have met are, by and large, not that fragile and we (at ASR) are generally quite a polite bunch, so...I don't know what is expected beyond that, that would somehow have women frequenting this forum in far greater numbers than they currently do?

Well here are a few people here who are so odious that they just live on my ignore list (I assume we can't receive PMs from people we ignore?) And they'll inevitably declare what they do is "just humour" I mean f*ck that. But sure I agree I also find ASR better than many internet fora: moderation is imperfect but generally functional (the LGBTQ+ thread debacle aside).

But I'm not sure the "without evidence" quote is what you want here to the bolster the 'I don't see any misogyny' side of the argument. How would there be data? Also, Hitchens wrote "Why Women Aren't Funny" for Vanity Fair so a bold choice for this thread.

 

[kemmler3D]

Has that gone on here though, where is the evidence for that?


or 0.1%, at what point does it become such a small problem that it is no different from noise? This is a scientific forum after all. I am not talking about tiktok or gaming/dating spheres, where this kind of thing may well be rather too common, but are you really suggesting that there is such behaviour on fora like these? Where is your evidence.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens (divisive character, but I think he has a point here)

Maybe it is because I grew up around what I would consider to be strong women, perhaps even matriarchs of a sort, but this defense of women - that vigorous debate or playful banter would send them running for the exit, I recognise in very few women I know or have met. Some I would never behave in a way I behave with other men, others like to be treated, more or less, like one of the boys, some are in between. You play these things by ear, but generally I don't recognise this description of intense sensitivity that seems to be suggested by some (male) commentators.

There is something of an unspoken suggestion that women are easily upset, so we must tiptoe around anything that might upset them...isn't that a little patronising? I don't see most women to be like this. I wouldn't discuss everything with women, as I would with men (generally speaking), but isn't it some kind of sexism to suggest they need a very particular/specific environment, before they can even dream of discussing things on a forum that is a) without swearing and b) without politics.

In what way could this place be a safer space for discussion, unless it is decided to ban all discussions like this entirely?

I just don't view most women in the way that some here seem to do. The ones I have met are, by and large, not that fragile and we (at ASR) are generally quite a polite bunch, so...I don't know what is expected beyond that, that would somehow have women frequenting this forum in far greater numbers than they currently do?

I think you may have inadvertently gone into strawman territory here. I was referring to post #265 that said women tend to get distressing PMs on the internet in general, not that "vigorous debate" would be a problem for anyone. I don't have any direct firsthand evidence, because nobody has mistaken me for a woman and sent me gross PMs.

I'm not sure if that's happened on ASR or not. However, my assertion is that if it did, it wouldn't take much to put a damper on female participation.

I think that's a reasonable point of view supported by analogy to broader studies, e.g. this one, which concludes women are more likely to receive negative comments based on their gender, as well as to be more cautious about future participation due to those negative comments.

So I guess that's evidence, although maybe not exactly what you had in mind.

I'm also not saying harassment in general is likely to be the main reason we don't see a lot of lady-folks around these parts. There are probably many reasons, many of which have already come up ITT. However, if you want to build a road, the whole thing needs to be paved, not just the flat parts.

I just don't view most women in the way that some here seem to do. The ones I have met are, by and large, not that fragile

I am not suggesting women are fragile. I'm thinking that if you got more than a very few ugly PMs, you might not find participating at ASR worth the bother. There's a big difference between "I can't handle this" and "whatever, F this." This is a hobby forum, I don't think many people are willing to introduce even a small amount of harassment into their leisure activities.

 

[Axo1989]

For the 1963 movie they decided to go with “contempt”

Interestingly, in that movie the contempt went the other way.

Sure did. Great film. But I do love Godard's work (some feminist critiques notwithstanding).

 

[fatoldgit]

Audiophilia is less a hobby than an affliction. This seems just another condition that is more common in men than women, like heart disease, stroke, or alzheimers.

Maybe related (noting my wife, now retired, was a Unix sysadmin... the best kind of sysadmin!!!!)... but for some reason lost in the mists of time, she took up knitting and crocheting after retiring.

Outwardly, its seems a very womanly thing to do to fill in your retirement years but it is an excruciatingly painstaking hobby and is something I could never do.

For example, when our Dexter the Doberman died she crocheted me a very large throw for my side of the bed, which depicted a Doberman (sitting, front on perspective). Took her forever.... and this was a single piece so imagine trying to "woman handle" something thats 8ft long and 4ft wide all the while maintaining the perspective of creating a life like Doberman.

She will do the same for her side, when our Ruby the Ridgeback departs this earth.

She has knitted other large items with super fine wool that took 2 months to complete.

Being who she is, at times she will undo 20% - 50% of a project (or 100% sometimes) cause she isnt happy with something.

Sure we audiophiles can sweat the small stuff but my wife's knitting trumps my audio obsessions.

Peter

 

[Axo1989]

On the cultural angle, iirc I've seen reports of broader demographics attending audio shows in certain eastern European countries (more women, more younger people). Possibly Berlin also. I'd have to check details. Possible result of historical work patterns, or other societal factors.