AVR / 2ch setup question

[jhaider]

Appreciate the thoughts (really), but I don't want to defend wanting to use a separate DAC/preamp for 2ch. I'm coming from a nice 2ch setup. I listen to classical all the time. I don't want to go backward in DAC or preamp quality to add a surround setup. And the MiniDSP Flex is not that pricey for how well it measured….

I'm just wondering if the setup I described…

Q: “How do I do dumb and pointless thing?”

A1: “Why do dumb and pointless thing?“

A2: “Don’t do dumb and pointless thing!”

Q2: “I don't want to defend dumb and pointless thing, [Insert nonsensical neuroses to justify doing dumb and pointless thing.] Can I do dumb and pointless thing this way?”

The obvious answer is don’t waste your time doing dumb and pointless things. That’s really all the responsible advice one can give here.

 

[dave999z]

Q: “How do I do dumb and pointless thing?”

A1: “Why do dumb and pointless thing?“

A2: “Don’t do dumb and pointless thing!”

Q2: “I don't want to defend dumb and pointless thing, [Insert nonsensical neuroses to justify doing dumb and pointless thing.] Can I do dumb and pointless thing this way?”

The obvious answer is don’t waste your time doing dumb and pointless things. That’s really all the responsible advice one can give here.

Great, thanks! Cheers.

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

Q: “How do I do dumb and pointless thing?”

A1: “Why do dumb and pointless thing?“

A2: “Don’t do dumb and pointless thing!”

Q2: “I don't want to defend dumb and pointless thing, [Insert nonsensical neuroses to justify doing dumb and pointless thing.] Can I do dumb and pointless thing this way?”

The obvious answer is don’t waste your time doing dumb and pointless things. That’s really all the responsible advice one can give here.

I find this quite harsh.

Advising blindly to only use the AVR in all cases without more information, really ??

For many people, using the AVR is the way to go. But not for everyone.

Don't generalize your own experience/usage/thinking

On my side, I had really good reasons to not use an AVR for stereo music listening and rather use dedicated electronic path.
But I also need an AVR for HT. Ideally an AVP but these are even more expensive than AVR.
Then you end up with differents routes to same end speakers (mains and subs).

while an AVR is a good all-in-one box:
- you may already own stereo system before buying an AVR
- some AVR might have issues with low impedance speakers and your stereo power not.
- audyssey is not as powerful and customizable as Dirac + dedicated DSP device. Even incomparable when listing stereo in my environment.
- AVR is connected to other devices using CEC. In my case, 3 other devices including the TV. I do not want these device to be also on when I am listening to music
- AVR + connected devices are drawing way much more current than ncore power amp + minidsp flex.
- as all-in-one box, AVR used for everything (music, video) locks your possible upgrade options.
- as all-in-one box, when it fails, you're left with nothing. In case of AVR failure, I don't care to not watch TV/movies for weeks. But I need music !!!

 

[peng]

If the device is off, I assumed it's not an "active output." But I don't know, which is why I asked. Maybe it would behave strangely as opposed to just behaving like that end of the Y cable is unplugged. Not sure how to find the real answer to that.

Did you read my post#14? Unless you have all the necessary info, such as schematics, take some measurements, or just use a switch (get one that comes with a remote if you must). Don't just assume... Again, are you sure you will never forget to turn one of the two off first before turning on the other, even if (still not sure yet) there is no issue if only one is on at any time

 

[dave999z]

Did you read my post#14? Unless you have all the necessary info, such as schematics, take some measurements, or just use a switch (get one that comes with a remote if you must). Don't just assume... Again, are you sure you will never forget to turn one of the two off first before turning on the other, even if (still not sure yet) there is no issue if only one is on at any time

Sorry, I did see your earlier post but read it too fast. Gotcha. I won't assume Y cables will work without problems. (That still surprises me -- learned something.)

 

[dave999z]

I actually think I've landed on a decent solution. Turns out, the 2ch amplifier and the subs I would get both have multiple inputs. So the AVR and the MiniDSP could always remain connected to the 2ch amp and subs. (And I can use balanced connections from the MiniDSP, and use unbalanced connections from the AVR.)

On the amp I'll have to physically flip a switch between those two sources, but that's fine, as I don't rapidly go back and forth from HT to music listening.

The sub has multiple inputs precisely for this purpose of going back and forth between a HT source and a music source.

So, no need to use Y cables to route two sources into the same input. Was worth considering.

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

@dave999z you don't need a splitter.
What you is describe lately is what I do in my system.
If you have preouts on the avr and subs that have 2 line inputs (most of them have).
You can have :
- AVR mains preouts > (analog in) flex > stereo power amp > mains
- AVR subs out > subs
- music source > flex (digital in)
- Flex > mains and subs

The double conversion digital / analog for mains in the context of HT is not an issue for me. I am more focus on the music signal path where I have have only conversion to analog done by the flex.

Keeping the flex at max volume (or few db less to avoid possible clipping) and letting source handling volume control:
- for HT : AVR
- for music: streamer or whatever digital source

 

[peng]

Sorry, I did see your earlier post but read it too fast. Gotcha. I won't assume Y cables will work without problems. (That still surprises me -- learned something.)

No worry, you might have been too busy responding to those who told you just use the avr lol..

To be clear, the reason why we have to be concern is the potential load to the preamp/dac output with another device connected even if the device is turned off.

The detailed schematics may clarify that, or if you know what and how to measure. Regarless, it most likely won't cause damaging something, but could degrade performance.

 

[peng]

I actually think I've landed on a decent solution. Turns out, the 2ch amplifier and the subs I would get both have multiple inputs. So the AVR and the MiniDSP could always remain connected to the 2ch amp and subs. (And I can use balanced connections from the MiniDSP, and use unbalanced connections from the AVR.)

On the amp I'll have to physically flip a switch between those two sources, but that's fine, as I don't rapidly go back and forth from HT to music listening.

The sub has multiple inputs precisely for this purpose of going back and forth between a HT source and a music source.

So, no need to use Y cables to route two sources into the same input. Was worth considering.

Sound good, and I have done something similar, but be careful with unbalanced/balanced "switch". Some of them may just be for impedance and/or gain matching, and may not be well isolated. Best bet is to ask the manufacturer the right questions.

It is most likely a viable solution, just a cautionary thing, to ask the amp manufacturer.

 

[rynberg]

Thanks.

On 3, how do you know that? Really, I'm interested where is this phenomenon demonstrated or documented. That is why I started this thread. That's what I want to know.

On 4, I don't want to debate that in this thread. My question is not about whether I should want or buy a MiniDSP. My question is just a technical connectivity question about how to integrate it. I just want to understand the considerations about the connectivity so I can make decisions on whether, how, and in what order to build a HT system. Basically, I want to know that there's a good way to integrate a 2.2 system with a larger system, in case the Denon falls short on 2ch performance; otherwise I won't want to go down the surround road.

This place is kind of funny in that there are all these published measurements about how incredible certain equipment is, but you're also dissuaded from wanting any of that equipment because it's purely academic / inaudible. If you buy anything below the audible threshold you're sacrificing performance and if you buy anything above you're foolishly wasting your money because you think you're special and have golden ears.

I don't mean that it's a mean spirited thing. I think people genuinely try to steer people toward making good decisions and thinking through what they're doing. But in this instance, I just want to know about the connectivity question.

Surprisingly, you aren't going to get a monolithic answer from a large group of individuals...

 

[rynberg]

I actually think I've landed on a decent solution. Turns out, the 2ch amplifier and the subs I would get both have multiple inputs. So the AVR and the MiniDSP could always remain connected to the 2ch amp and subs. (And I can use balanced connections from the MiniDSP, and use unbalanced connections from the AVR.)

On the amp I'll have to physically flip a switch between those two sources, but that's fine, as I don't rapidly go back and forth from HT to music listening.

The sub has multiple inputs precisely for this purpose of going back and forth between a HT source and a music source.

So, no need to use Y cables to route two sources into the same input. Was worth considering.

Sounds like you have your answer!

 

[jhaider]

Advising blindly to only use the AVR in all cases without more information, really ??

Yes. No more information beyond "two electronics chains, one set of speakers" is necessary.

Don't generalize your own experience/usage/thinking

The mistake above is putting dumbass audiophool neuroses on the same plane as "thinking."

On my side, I had really good reasons to not use an AVR for stereo music listening and rather use dedicated electronic path. But I also need an AVR for HT. Ideally an AVP but these are even more expensive than AVR.

Let's make a deal that one can't bitch and moan about “expensive” when one is throwing money away on dumb and pointless duplication of basic functionality, OK?

- you may already own stereo system before buying an AVR

So sell it (perhaps to fund a "better" set of electronics for all the content), or keep in a closet in reserve in case the new electronics break (addressing your last point, which I did not quote, completely).

- some AVR might have issues with low impedance speakers and your stereo power not.

We are talking about two sets of crap driving one set of speakers. Given that, your stated concern (to the extent it is not illusory) about a given AVR's ability to drive the chosen speakers obviously applies to all program, not just mere 2-channel. So use the damn preouts on the AVR to drive the separate amp. And if your AVR doesn't have preouts, sell it (see above) and buy a suitable one.

- audyssey is not as powerful and customizable as Dirac + dedicated DSP device. Even incomparable when listing stereo in my environment.

Bullshit. Writing as someone with extensive experience with most flavors of both systems*, there's just not much to choose from between Audyssey (with the iOS app to untangle Audyssey's many default errors) and basic Dirac. Both fundamentally do a good job of fitting a measured in room average response to a target curve. I could with minimal effort configure both to be indistinguishable in the blind for a 2.0 channel system, and with moderate effort configure both to be indistinguishable in the blind in a 2.1-channel system. Dirac does have the better UI, but if you have to use both UIs anyway (because duplicative sets of electronics crap) what does that matter?

Yes, DLBC pulls very far ahead of any flavor of Audyssey IME. However, except for one very expensive and possibly-not-yet-even-available NAD box, you can't even get DLBC on 2-channel electronics. This current sad-unfortunate state of so-called hi-fi 2-channel preamps and processors is why I personally had to buy a Monoprice HTP-1 to run our 2-channel system, even though there is zero chance of going beyond 2.multisubs in that room. Maybe Tony will start having his folks integrate the better flavors of Dirac into miniDSP products. I certainly hope and wish that to be so! But for now, if you want advanced room correction, you must use "home theater" electronics.

*I have used every variant of Dirac Live starting with the early betas. I have not used Audyssey's MultEQ X software; however IMO X does not even try to narrow the performance gap between Audyssey and the better versions of Dirac, there's no macOS version, and the licensing model sucks. So I don't see the point of it. The iOS app seems to do everything necessary, with better compatibility and far superior licensing terms.

- AVR is connected to other devices using CEC. In my case, 3 other devices including the TV. I do not want these device to be also on when I am listening to music

As I understand it, CEC puts devices in standby as well as turning them on depending on what's in us. So if box x isn't used, it won't be activated. Is that wrong?

Admittedly last time I looked at CEC it was a mess I wanted no part of. It is unfortunate that Logitech discontinued Harmony, because there wasn't (and isn't, alas) any other good user-programmable remote control. But the database is still up (I hope! I haven't had to make changes in a while) so there's always the used market I guess.

- AVR + connected devices are drawing way much more current than ncore power amp + minidsp flex.

Do you actually know that? Also, define "way."

- as all-in-one box, AVR used for everything (music, video) locks your possible upgrade options.

So...having everything in one neat box means you can't parade a never-ending series of meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss who cares whatevers into your home, and you're stuck listening to music?

The horror! The horror!

 

[peng]

you can't even get DLBC on 2-channel electronics. This current sad-unfortunate state of so-called hi-fi 2-channel preamps and processors is why I personally had to buy a Monoprice HTP-1 to run our 2-channel system, even though there is zero chance of going beyond 2.multisubs in that room. Maybe Tony will start having his folks integrate the better flavors of Dirac into miniDSP products. I certainly hope and wish that to be so! But for now, if you want advanced room correction, you must use "home theater" electronics.

Not completely true, you can get DLBC on 2-channel, even 2.1 channel electronics if you are okay with using the PC standalone version. In one of my 2 channel room, I cannot try it because I am too cheap to get a 4 channel dac when I only need 3 channels because I cannot fit two subs there. In my HT room, I tried 2.2 using DLBC and got good results, much better than Anthem's Genesis, on paper anyway.

For the 2.1 system, before I would use DLBC, I hope, minidsp, SMSL or Topping will come up with a 3, or 4, or both channel (for 2.1 or 2.2) electronics such as DACs, with both HDMI inputs and outputs. If not, then I too, will be forced to use an AVR without pre outs of AVP, if I can trade in (I doubt they would do that...) my PC standalone license for the one needed with AVR/AVPs.

 

[Music1969]

Hi Peng

If I had DSP crossover speakers than have linear phase crossover , and thus some delay, and I use that with Denon AVR and Auddesy, how much delay can Auddesy accommodate?

I assume the Denon AVR would have to delay the video, if there is audio delay?

 

[peng]

Hi Peng

If I had DSP crossover speakers than have linear phase crossover , and thus some delay, and I use that with Denon AVR and Auddesy, how much delay can Auddesy accommodate?

I assume the Denon AVR would have to delay the video, if there is audio delay?

I remember seeing the maximum delay, that people complained wasn't enough. I don't remember the number but I am sure someone will answer your question soon.

 

[jhaider]

Not completely true, you can get DLBC on 2-channel, even 2.1 channel electronics if you are okay with using the PC standalone version.

A general purpose computer isn’t “2-channel electronics” though. And of course one can’t generally run other sources, such as a turntable or your phone, through a computer. And that ignores the miserable user experience of using a general computer as audio source - even if it’s a Mac! Fine for a single student, I guess. But for a family, no way.

 

[peng]

A general purpose computer isn’t “2-channel electronics” though. And of course one can’t generally run other sources, such as a turntable or your phone, through a computer. And that ignores the miserable user experience of using a general computer as audio source - even if it’s a Mac! Fine for a single student, I guess. But for a family, no way.

That's fair, but I get around some of the drawbacks by using my Windows and Mac laptops with JRiver and external DACs, plus Dirac Live.

 

[soerenssen]

@dave999z @peng Would it be okay if I continue the discussion about combining 2ch and HT here? Based on the opening post I am in an almost identical situation basically. Combining a high-quality stereo chain with something like a MiniDSP Flex/SHD as pre-amp/DAC, with a basic HT system with either x3800 or x4800 as pre-pro. They would share a stereo Ncore power amp, but instead of connecting the AVR line out to the MiniDSP, having something like a Little Bear MC2 or MC3 to switch inputs (RCA from the Denon and XLR from the MiniDSP, single XLR output going to the power amp). Also, if there is a significantly cheaper way to get 96KHz Dirac Live (with DLBC option later on), the idea of having a dedicated PC or Mac with an external DAC sounds nice too.

 

[MichaelJ]

I took this approach for a couple years when I had my Denon 3700H for HT. I used the Denon 3700H > ATI NCORE amp for HT and a MinidDSP SHD > Topping D90SE > ATI NCORE AMP for music. I was able to use the same amp/speakers by inserting a Goldpoint SW2X-I switch before the amp (2 XLR in/1 XLR out). I also had two subs in my setup, which I fed from both the 3700H (unbalanced) and the SHD (balanced). This worked great for my purposes, but ultimately I decided to go with an Anthem AVM-70 for both music and HT, and I’m happy with it for now.

At any rate, I have that Goldpoint SW2X-I switch and my Topping D90SE for sale for interested parties.

 

[Chesapeake HT]

I remember seeing the maximum delay, that people complained wasn't enough. I don't remember the number but I am sure someone will answer your question soon.

I believe it is ~22’. I have two subs, and one uses the SVS soundpath tri-band transmitter. Audyssey (through MultiEQ app) originally assigned 7.45 m (not physical distance, equipment signal “distance”). After applying the distance correction (0.8746) (works for me, but understand not universally accepted) I had a value of 6.52 m. At one point I sent the base run with 7.45 m “distance” to my x4700 and I received a distance is too long warning. No problem with the corrected one. So it’s somewhere north of 6.52m / 21.4’.