• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Do we crave distortion?

Lieglein

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2021
Messages
33
Likes
35
He used classical (not sure about chamber) and got the opposite result from your prediction….
Yes, it depends on the amount. As we know, a lot of in relation to more cleaner measured harsh distorting amplifiers also do not have a big impact on the recordings.
Im just telling my experience which clearly says that in comparison to applying distortion other instruments it will destroy the harmonic structure for classical instruments.
 
Last edited:

Matias

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
5,108
Likes
10,984
Location
São Paulo, Brazil

Galliardist

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 26, 2021
Messages
2,559
Likes
3,284
Location
Sydney. NSW, Australia
On some instruments depending on the pressure or dumbing (I have language barriers here to explain it) on the string you can even output a tone similar to an impulse, a single *tik* true to frequency but with minimal duration.
The term you are looking for is damping.
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,256
Likes
17,243
Location
Riverview FL
Harmonics of a single cleanly played note on an electric bass guitar, electrical signal into an ADC, no added distortions.

It took several tries to pluck so that the 2nd harmonic was not at a higher level than the fundamental.

index.php


A Grolsch 330ml beer bottle picked up by UMIK-1 - very low distortion - close to a sine wave

index.php
 

pkane

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
5,740
Likes
10,483
Location
North-East
Harmonics of a single cleanly played note on an electric bass guitar, electrical signal into an ADC, no added distortions.

It took several tries to pluck so that the 2nd harmonic was not at a higher level than the fundamental.

index.php


A Grolsch 330ml beer bottle picked up by UMIK-1 - very low distortion - close to a sine wave

index.php

I knew there was a scientific reason to like beer!
 

Galliardist

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 26, 2021
Messages
2,559
Likes
3,284
Location
Sydney. NSW, Australia
To my experience, it really depends on the instrumentation and interpretation.

In general one can say, the more dense the frequency spectrum of a piece or instrument is, the more distortion is acceptable. Synths for example in general really have a more dense frequency spectrum and they are pretty much made for sound design through adding harmonic distortion. The same goes for the electric guitar and bass.

Classical instruments really do not have a dense frequency spectrum. You will hear added distortion immediately. Try playing a chamber orchestra piece with added distortion to people.

I do not think they will think that this would be better. Adding harmonics is just synthesizing. And it works better with instruments that are made for sound design. Acoustical instruments are rather not.
Not really. Maybe... really not.

The point about acoustic instruments is that they do, for the most part, exactly what the harmonics @Keith_W is adding. The string, or pipe, or tube, contribute to the sound by vibrating, and once the instrument settles into a note, they add so much second harmonic, less third harmonic, less again fourth, and so on. Some instruments add more odd harmonics than even, though, or random noise alongside any progression (think cymbals). So adding that harmonic pattern will make a lot of instruments sound "more" like we expect the instruments to, and we like that: but it won't make all of them sound more, and it will also alter the moment when a note starts playing, the noise that happens before the note appears.

It also changes the sounds of the instrument that don't work in that harmonic series, like the box sound component that's also there with a lot of instruments, the sounds of keys clicking and parts moving, and the sounds associated with the acoustic. There can be differences with voice as well.

One more thing to think about in this regard is the sound of small speakers in the bass. The reason that less bass from smaller speakers works, is that instruments playing bass notes often produce more second harmonic anyway. You can have less of the fundamental, or a distorted fundamental, and the second harmonic tells you what the instrument is and (because it will be high enough to be directional) where it is in whatever you get as a sound stage with that system and recording. With a small speaker, you may find part of the music a lot more convincing because there is more of that second harmonic. If you think back a few decades, most speakers did not go below 40Hz, certainly not cleanly, and subwoofers were much rarer. So second harmonic back then may have been more important than it is with a full range system today. Of course, if you have one of the majority of speaker setups even today that don't go deep, or that distort deep notes (pretty sure mine do as I have twin 8" drivers per speaker and no sub), you may still find that adding that harmonic pattern improves the bass, regardless of any other issues.

But what happens if an instrument doesn't have that pattern of harmonics, or has a very loud initial sound, or is a sound from an electronic instrument that is designed with odd harmonics to sound a bit disturbing, or even if we do something on an instrument that changes the harmonics (such as playing a guitar pizzicato, damping the string at the bridge, which stops the even harmonics sounding as well)? Well, it sounds less clean. So you hit the origins of the PRaT debate, even if that term is pretty meaningless these days.
 

Gorgonzola

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Messages
1,043
Likes
1,426
Location
Southern Ontario
Do audiophiles crave distortion in playback? Absolutely!! -- very many of them anyway.

In fact distortion, principally 2n & 3rd order, are the secret to the enduring success of tube components. Unfortunately many "tubephiles" deny the fact; some deny the concept, others concede that distortion might have something to do with their preferences. However very few explicitly acknowledge they are looking for distortion -- although this is obviously true for SET lovers.

One of these days I'll get PKHarmonics to work in my version of Foobar2000 but to date I've had no success. Looks like I'll just have to live with my tube preamp for a while yet.
 
OP
Keith_W

Keith_W

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Messages
2,709
Likes
6,261
Location
Melbourne, Australia
"Classical music" covers a whole range of sins though, from solo guitar at the quiet end to the 1812-style bombast at the other. I know that I may prefer your distortion test on some orchestral music, but I doubt I would on harpsichord (assuming that a lot of what you add is second harmonic).

Could you be more specific about music choice and what you are actually adding?

Sorry, missed your question. I played mostly chamber music - string quartets, violin sonatas, lieder for my guests. However, I have also found that it improves the sound of orchestral music.
 

Rja4000

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
2,781
Likes
4,747
Location
Liège, Belgium
In general one can say, the more dense the frequency spectrum of a piece or instrument is, the more distortion is acceptable. Synths for example in general really have a more dense frequency spectrum and they are pretty much made for sound design through adding harmonic distortion. The same goes for the electric guitar and bass.

Classical instruments really do not have a dense frequency spectrum. You will hear added distortion immediately. Try playing a chamber orchestra piece with added distortion to people.
I don't know what you mean by "dense" here.

Acoustic instruments add naturally harmonics (and inharmonics, to an extent) to the note played.
The harmonics profile is what make them sound different.

overtones-of-different-instruments.jpg

main-qimg-c0d6d386672a931a8379ac8c89110252.png



As can be seen above, the % of harmonics is not shy. For some, it's more than 100%.

Early Synthesizers, at the opposite, were producing very clean tones.
So clean that they seemed uninteresting.
Nowadays, they rather use PCM samples of real instruments, or complex harmonics combinations.
 

restorer-john

Grand Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
12,806
Likes
39,261
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Harmonics are like salt and pepper in audio.
You need some, but not too much.

Instruments are generating a lot of harmonics.
Some renowned microphone preamps add some as well.

In my opinion, being able to add some harmonics "to taste" is the best solution.

Buy a perfectly transparent system, add some plugin, as you do, and you'll be able to mimic (and best) any of those fancy "high end" systems for a fraction of their price.
And in a much more flexible/sensible way.

And the rest of the time, you'll have a better sounding system :cool:

Best post by far, in this thread. :)
 

Galliardist

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 26, 2021
Messages
2,559
Likes
3,284
Location
Sydney. NSW, Australia
I don't know what you mean by "dense" here.

Acoustic instruments add naturally harmonics (and inharmonics, to an extent) to the note played.
The harmonics profile is what make them sound different.

View attachment 295376
View attachment 295378


As can be seen above, the % of harmonics is not shy. For some, it's more than 100%.

Early Synthesizers, at the opposite, were producing very clean tones.
So clean that they seemed uninteresting.
Nowadays, they rather use PCM samples of real instruments, or complex harmonics combinations.
Thanks for the examples. Not all instruments of these types will share these exact profiles: other violin examples I've seen have a fair bit more second harmonic. Giving different flutes I hope demonstrates that point.
I presume that all these are generated using the basic technique for playing the instrument, and it's probably obvious to say that all these instruments have ways of being played to sound quite differently (trumpet mutes may be an example people know of), and those different sounds are different combinations of the harmonics.

Preserving harmonics is important to fidelity, even if disrupting them sounds nice.
 

MarnixM

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Messages
95
Likes
102
Location
Netherlands
This has lead me to wonder if there have been any studies that have been performed to show whether or not there is actually a preference for some distortion. This might explain why so many in our hobby love the sound of poorly measuring equipment. I know that it is religion among many in our hobby that the signal remain as unmolested as possible for high fidelity reproduction - it is not my aim to discuss this in this thread. What I want to know is whether other people have tried it and preferred the sound of a bit of distortion, and whether there have been any studies showing preference for some types of distortion.

Some sources:

 

Curvature

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2022
Messages
1,133
Likes
1,437
Some notes:

Adding distortion in audible amounts changes the perception of loudness. There has to be a small level compensation or the comparison is unfair. Look up experiments with loudness and critical bands, for example. With speakers, high distortion during the early stages of saturation simply sounds unpleasantly loud. Increasing saturation eventually corrupts the music because the harmonics will have enough power to modulate the signal's spectrum, sounding like dense warbling.

Instrument harmonic profile is only part of their sound. Each harmonic is also a different phase from the rest, but an even larger factor is the envelope, particularly the attack (the initial rise in amplitude, which we could think of as the first arriving wave). Like with speakers, the harmonics are hard to hear unless very high relative to the fundamental. There have been experiments where sustained notes on instruments have been recorded and then played back with the attack cut, and they have proved hard to distinguish.
 

IAtaman

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 29, 2021
Messages
2,428
Likes
4,224
Some sources:

Thank you for the links. I was reading the paper with the file names AES06GedLee_II. I have to say, not best written article I ever read.

"A horn will seldom exhibit anything above a 2nd order nonlinearity, although this order can migrate upward to higher orders in a long horn, although this later situation is not usually found in practice"

Also they quote the name of the song they chose wrong.

Finally, conclusion is also quite underwhelming I have to admit.

"The results of this study indicated that within the constraints of this simple study that the perception of linear distortion is dependent on the level and the delay time of the linear distortion and the playback level."

For their defense though, they seem to recognize the obviousness of their conclusion in the paper as well.

Do you have a link for their reference they list by any chance? Only one I found is behind the beautiful paywall of AES.
[5] F.E. Toole and S.E. Olive, “The Modification of Timbre by Resonances: Perception and Measurement,” J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 36, pp 122-142 (1988 Mar.).
 
Last edited:

Galliardist

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 26, 2021
Messages
2,559
Likes
3,284
Location
Sydney. NSW, Australia
Can't think of any reason I'd want to hear anything other than what was recorded.
You only get at best to hear what the copy of the recording you have includes, and that's different, sometimes very different.
 
D

Deleted member 48726

Guest
You only get at best to hear what the copy of the recording you have includes, and that's different, sometimes very different.
Well, yeah. I didn't think I needed to state that. But of course it's "the copy of the recording" then. CD / Streaming.
 
Top Bottom