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Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

Frank2

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When my vintage Yamaha MX1 power amp broke down a couple of years ago, I needed a temporary fix until I had the money to buy a new "high end" power amplifier. So I bought an img stageline 800d, which is based on the Hypex UCD400. It never left. It sounds as good as the MX1 it replaced and I am perfectly happy with it. And I do consider myself to be an audiophile...

Edit: it was only 350 Euros back then...
 

Kijanki

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Interesting point about intermodulation distortion, as intermodulation distortion is a much more audible concern than many other types of distortion ( ref klipch distortion test earlier this thread). I would also guess that intermodulation distortion is very difficult to measure properly using only static measurements (as the industry does) as intermodulation will be more prominent in highly dynamic settings and difficult to simulate using static measurements.
IMD and THD, being product of non-linearity go in pairs. I don't know how one can have low THD (good linearity) and high IMD (bad linearity)?
 

nygafre

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In the last year, I’ve moved from AB to class D. The class D pretty much transformed my speakers. Bass and clarity significantly improved. But, I do miss one aspect of the AB, (which I’ve not yet experienced with my class D): voices sounded so nice on my old amps. They somehow just felt more relaxing on the AB.

Can anyone explain this? Is it simply due to more harmonics/distoritions with class AB, which I subjectively perceive as ‘more relaxing’? I have now tested a number of both AB and class D, and my impression still remains. I have nothing against neither AB or class D, i like them both.
 

techsamurai

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The only thing I would trust is blind A/B testing and I'm going to have to use 2 tests I've done that rely on sight (which is better than hearing) and 1 in hearing.

One was comparing an OLED 4k laptop to a Sony 1080p IPS Edge-lit - clearly the OLED should wipe the floor with the IPS LED. My OLED laptop uses a Samsung panel and hits 1,000 nits (so it's way brighter than any LED monitor). I used it to humiliate my 2014 Sony IPS edge-lit (a flagship 1080p model at the time). The first thing I noticed was that the OLED was brighter (ironic) so I disabled the light sensor on the Sony. Then I color-matched them. And then we fell off our seats as I put the laptop in my lap and created the same viewport as my TV so I could look at the same source at the same time. I did NOT expect what I saw. It defied logic. The engineers who built that Sony are wizards, period.

The other blind testing came courtesy of Netflix and the limitation of 720p when playing in Chrome. On the same OLED laptop, I could play 4k Dolby Vision in IE and 720p SDR in Chrome. With the ALT-Tab key, I could switch instantly. Let's just say, the less you know about HDR and 4k the better.

I recently listened to audio samples of the Monolith 7x and Emotiva XPA-7 Gen 3. It was youtube but I could definitely detect differences between the Monolith's toroidal and class H (not D). I'm not going to label them as better or worse but having listened to toroidal sound for 15 years, the Monolith definitely provided a similar experience. The XPA was definitely a change.

But you need to do blind testing and usually you'll know within 5 seconds if it's different and whether you feel it's an improvement.
 
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nowonas

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IMD and THD, being product of non-linearity go in pairs. I don't know how one can have low THD (good linearity) and high IMD (bad linearity)?
Not necessary, IMD is distinct from harmonic distortion in that the stimulus signal is different. The same nonlinear system will produce both total harmonic distortion (with a solitary sine wave input) and IMD (with more complex tones).
 
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techsamurai

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In the last year, I’ve moved from AB to class D. The class D pretty much transformed my speakers. Bass and clarity significantly improved. But, I do miss one aspect of the AB, (which I’ve not yet experienced with my class D): voices sounded so nice on my old amps. They somehow just felt more relaxing on the AB.

Can anyone explain this? Is it simply due to more harmonics/distoritions with class AB, which I subjectively perceive as ‘more relaxing’? I have now tested a number of both AB and class D, and my impression still remains. I have nothing against neither AB or class D, i like them both.

Well, I have another conundrum that might apply to this in a manner. I had a Netflix Blu-ray subscription so everything I watched had a DTS Master HD (or the rare Dolby TrueHD). I've actually blind tested streaming with my PS4 streaming over optical compressed DD and my Xbox streaming DD+. I found a huge difference in the intro to "No Sudden Move" with the nice song.

But then the HDMI died on one of my AVRs and we were forced to listen to DTS soundtracks for movies as opposed to DTS Master HD and my family and I reacted more positively to the DTS soundtrack (same AVR, only lower res). I actually did some blind testing of DTS and DTS Master HD and I can definitely hear that the Master soundtrack is more detailed and you can hear a nail cut through the air but we don't seem to enjoy it as much. It's almost as if our ears are saying that "it's too detailed" and they can't appreciate it the way.

I suspect that's what Marantz has been doing with the HDAMs - they are un-mastering everything.
 

Frank2

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In the last year, I’ve moved from AB to class D. The class D pretty much transformed my speakers. Bass and clarity significantly improved. But, I do miss one aspect of the AB, (which I’ve not yet experienced with my class D): voices sounded so nice on my old amps. They somehow just felt more relaxing on the AB.

Can anyone explain this? Is it simply due to more harmonics/distoritions with class AB, which I subjectively perceive as ‘more relaxing’? I have now tested a number of both AB and class D, and my impression still remains. I have nothing against neither AB or class D, i like them both.
More clarity in voices does tend to make them sound less relaxing. I sometimes read subjective experiences like that from people who upgrade to NCore. I have an UCD based amp and do not notice it. What kind of class D are you using?
 

SIY

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More clarity in voices does tend to make them sound less relaxing. I sometimes read subjective experiences like that from people who upgrade to NCore. I have an UCD based amp and do not notice it. What kind of class D are you using?
Don’t take sighted evaluations too seriously.
 

atmasphere

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Can you get lower output impedance from an OTL design?
Yes.
The question isn't if you can, but if you should. It requires lots of feedback in any tube amp to achieve a low output impedance. When you have those levels of feedback you also are pushing the envelope of phase margin in the amp. Reliability has to be considered; any amp that tests its phase margin isn't reliable!
When we came on the scene, the world was more convinced than analog vs digital or solid state vs tubes that OTLs were simply unreliable.
We made the first reliable OTLs; one reason was no feedback. Instead we relied on triodes, class A operation, fully differential balanced operation, a single stage of gain and no output transformer to create a low distortion circuit. It keeps up with tube amps using feedback in that regard, but obviously needs higher impedance loads (or speaker loads that have a flat impedance curve).
But Class D has sometime difficulties high midrange and high frequencies.
But Class D is subject to hiss (in the high frequencies) that is never quantified in the measurements.
The hiss comes in when the amp is unable to compensate for frequency drift of the triangle wave. If it shifts frequency, a quantization noise which sounds a lot like white noise is created. To get around that you have two choices: use a temperature controlled crystal oscillator and divide down to the desired switching frequency,
Or
Use a self-oscillating design. In our circuit, the opamps used in the input buffer creates about 90% of the noise of the circuit. So its quite suitable for use on horn speakers.
More feedback and lower open loop source impedance, the latter of which is expensive, the former of which is tricky. Not to speak for Ralph, but I don’t think low source Z is his goal. In the past, he’s argued for a constant power source rather than a constant voltage source. I disagree with him, but I understand his reasoning.
Being pragmatic is helpful in life preventing expensive mistakes! We found in blind tests early on that listeners preferred our amps on easy speaker loads and not on difficult loads and no amount of feedback would fix the latter. So we stuck to easier to drive speakers. Then along came SETs and the speakers people made for them (or maybe people made SETs for higher efficiency speakers, not sure which...) . Turned out no matter how expensive the SET, our OTLs could sound better in blind tests on the same speakers. With a lot more power, way wider bandwidth, several orders of magnitude lower distortion and so on. SETs have a high output impedance and the speakers on which they are used expect the amp to be a power source rather than a voltage source.
"Class AB has the added advantage of wide HF bandwidth and of not requiring an output filter"

Can this be one explanation of why some do not like class D in the HF bandwith? That the required low pass filter with limited bandwidth cause audible ringing and phase errors in the audible range?

I know that this is not the case with modern class D amplifiers, like Hypex, which I agree sound fantastic.
The Hypex is self oscillating, which means its using a lot of feedback. Its enough that its able to compensate for phase issues that the ear uses for recreating the sound stage.

Traditionally it was not possible to use that much feedback, so to avoid phase shift wide bandwidth was needed. IOW with a self oscillating class D amp you don't need a wide bandwidth and yet the 3D sound field is properly created.
I'm not sure why class D has to have, as often stated, "large amount of feedback" to be stable. If anything, amplifier can be unstable because of the feedback. Output stage is "unstable" to start with, since output Mosfets switch from open to close. It cannot be more "unstable" than that.
In a self-oscillating class D amplifier, so much feedback is applied that the phase margin of the amp is grossly exceeded and it goes into oscillation as soon as its powered up. The feedback network is designed so that it will only oscillate at one frequency: the switching frequency. In this way you kill two birds with one stone- how to get lots of feedback and setting the switching frequency. This in addition to the advantage I mentioned just above.
 

Frank2

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Don’t take sighted evaluations too seriously.
I know, but the difference between UCD and NCore could give us a clue about what's going on without ending up in a pro/con class D debate.
I found someone on a DIY forum who owns them both (for over 2 years) and compared them (again) for 'most of the day':

In my opinion, the Hypex UcD400HG HxR | sound UcD
rounder and more musical, the Hypex Ncore 400 more precise and precise,
this could be a bit too much in the long run
see: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...e-price-difference.241285/page-2#post-6587046

Whether you like a 'rounded' or a 'precise' sound depends a lot on the recording, your mood of the day, and your general preferences but maybe the measurements performed on both class D amplifiers could give us a clue how 'round' and 'precise' relate to measurements?
 

kemmler3D

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I know, but the difference between UCD and NCore could give us a clue about what's going on without ending up in a pro/con class D debate.
I found someone on a DIY forum who owns them both (for over 2 years) and compared them (again) for 'most of the day':


see: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...e-price-difference.241285/page-2#post-6587046

Whether you like a 'rounded' or a 'precise' sound depends a lot on the recording, your mood of the day, and your general preferences but maybe the measurements performed on both class D amplifiers could give us a clue how 'round' and 'precise' relate to measurements?
When I hear "rounded vs. precise" I would expect to see differences in low frequency FR, a roll-off in high frequencies, or perhaps a big difference in H2 harmonic distortion. However, if you look at the measurements between these two amps, you don't see any differences that ought to be audible in those quantities. So the question really should be what does this poster think they're hearing that isn't being measured?

The usual explanation of bias from sighted listening or less-than-perfect level matching seems more compelling than "There's some hidden, arcane measurement that produces clearly audible differences that nobody usually performs".
 

SIY

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I know, but the difference between UCD and NCore could give us a clue about what's going on without ending up in a pro/con class D debate.
I found someone on a DIY forum who owns them both (for over 2 years) and compared them (again) for 'most of the day':


see: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...e-price-difference.241285/page-2#post-6587046

Whether you like a 'rounded' or a 'precise' sound depends a lot on the recording, your mood of the day, and your general preferences but maybe the measurements performed on both class D amplifiers could give us a clue how 'round' and 'precise' relate to measurements?
Don’t start by assuming that the reported sound differences are real. They’re likely not, and that makes an engineering approach useless.
 

techsamurai

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It's the change to the status quo they don't like. I can be guilty of that too.

It's easy to dismiss a new paradgim as being 'wrong' if it challenges the base knowledge and beliefs systems, especially if it does so, much cheaper, easier and in some ways better.

HiFi was traditionally a difficult, expensive and arduous pursuit. You had to be in it for the long run. Pay your dues, climb the ladder and pay the price. Not anymore. You can jump to the top of the class for not a lot of time, effort or money. It sounds like cheating, but it is not. :)

I'm not sure, I understand. Are you referring to the consumers or the manufacturers?

Essentially anyone can now get great sounding gear by buying a Class D amplifier or it's easy for any company to make a world class Class D amplifier?
 

nygafre

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More clarity in voices does tend to make them sound less relaxing. I sometimes read subjective experiences like that from people who upgrade to NCore. I have an UCD based amp and do not notice it. What kind of class D are you using?
I’m using the Powernode N330, which is UcD and my favourite class D so far. I’ve also tried Nad D3020 V2, NAD C368, PS Audio Sprout 100, and a few other class D amps. It always felt a bit more relaxing going back to my AB amp (w/ regards to voices). For all other aspects, I find the powernode to outperform my old amp. And it is clearly very good with voices too, I don’t want to make it seem like it’s not :)

The difference is very subtle, noticing it after living with the systems for some time. (I have not done any blindtesting on this). I was just wondering if there was an obvious explanation .

I coincidally discovered that Kef LS50 wireless uses class D for the midrange/woofer and class AB for the HF, which made me want to investigate this. There must be a reason to why Kef does this?
 

fpitas

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IMD and THD, being product of non-linearity go in pairs. I don't know how one can have low THD (good linearity) and high IMD (bad linearity)?
You *might* be able to accomplish that with DSP. Otherwise, no.
 

Kijanki

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Not necessary, IMD is distinct from harmonic distortion in that the stimulus signal is different. The same nonlinear system will produce both total harmonic distortion (with a solitary sine wave input) and IMD (with more complex tones).
I understand that they are different since one type of distortion creates harmonics and the other very audible non-harmonically related frequencies. I am saying that if amp has extremely low THD then it has to have good linearity. With good linearity IMD is also low. With perfectly linear amp you won't get any IMD, no matter what test signal is.
 

SoNic

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The speed that an amplifier can react and follow that dynamic of an audio signal is finite.
If it was infinite then yes, the THD and IMD would be equal and steady state signal would describe the transitional state perfect.
But real life amp does not have infinite bandwidth and zero phase distortion, or delay in that bandwidth. Real amps have limited slew rates and finite bandwidth.
Those play into... how well it will follow a transient signal. Step impulse response is one of the tests that tries to measure this, but not only.
Amplifier transfer function and poles compensation is something that is not needed to deal with, if one just plays a 1000Hz sinusoid. So, the steady state measurements are not everything and all.

A system may have low distortion for a steady-state signal, but not on sudden transients. In amplifiers, this problem can be traced to power supplies in some instances, to insufficient high-frequency performance or to excessive negative feedback. Class D has it's own issues related to how the output error is integrated.
Related measurements are slew rate and rise time. Distortion in transient response can be hard to measure. Many otherwise good power amplifier designs have been found to have inadequate slew rates, by modern standards.
 

SIY

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The speed that an amplifier can react and follow that dynamic of an audio signal is finite.
If it was infinite then yes, the THD and IMD would be equal and steady state signal would describe the transitional state perfect.
But real life amp does not have infinite bandwidth and zero phase distortion, or delay in that bandwidth. Real amps have limited slew rates and finite bandwidth.
Those play into... how well it will follow a transient signal. Step impulse response is one of the tests that tries to measure this, but not only.
Amplifier transfer function and poles compensation is something that is not needed to deal with, if one just plays a 1000Hz sinusoid. So, the steady state measurements are not everything and all.

A system may have low distortion for a steady-state signal, but not on sudden transients. In amplifiers, this problem can be traced to power supplies in some instances, to insufficient high-frequency performance or to excessive negative feedback. Class D has it's own issues related to how the output error is integrated.
Related measurements are slew rate and rise time. Distortion in transient response can be hard to measure. Many otherwise good power amplifier designs have been found to have inadequate slew rates, by modern standards.
Your understanding of amplification is certainly novel.
 

JanesJr1

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It has? I almost never see people on here touting listening tests.
Keep reading; I have read it here many, many, many times. The emphasis is on transducers, somewhat less so on amps, and least on DAC's. The limitation is that ASR, by nature of its volunteerism and mission, is focused primarily on measurements of donated or loaned equipment via Amir and a few others, rather than on expensive research projects. By-the-book controlled listening tests are occasionally done by members but much more often are incidentally reported here second hand by those members who stay in touch with industry and academic projects.
 
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