I'm torn on what speakers to buy guys...

[TimW]

The Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 also measures very well in that price range. I wouldn't count out the Denton 80 just because we don't have high resolution measurements either.

I know it goes against your idea of simplicity, but room correction and corrective equalization can offer large improvements to system performance. Much larger of a difference than which type of circuitry your amp uses. Automated room correction makes things easy and PEQ allows for manual room correction or speaker response correction. This is somewhat rare in integrated amplifiers but there are a few options. You can even implement PEQ using some streamers which works if they are your only source. What will your sources of sound be? Streaming? Turntable? TV? You can get a subwoofer with PEQ built in instead which will provide some of the room correction benefits. You may not be able to set a proper crossover with the mains though. At the very least your amplifier will need to have a pre-out or subwoofer out for adding most subs. Personally I like integrated amps with pre-out/main-in connectors so that I can put DSP in between for proper subwoofer integration and room correction. I used an NAD C326BEE this way.

 

[chang]

The Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 also measures very well in that price range. I wouldn't count out the Denton 80 just because we don't have high resolution measurements either.

I know it goes against your idea of simplicity, but room correction and corrective equalization can offer large improvements to system performance. Much larger of a difference than which type of circuitry your amp uses. Automated room correction makes things easy and PEQ allows for manual room correction or speaker response correction. This is somewhat rare in integrated amplifiers but there are a few options. You can even implement PEQ using some streamers which works if they are your only source. What will your sources of sound be? Streaming? Turntable? TV? You can get a subwoofer with PEQ built in instead which will provide some of the room correction benefits. You may not be able to set a proper crossover with the mains though. At the very least your amplifier will need to have a pre-out or subwoofer out for adding most subs. Personally I like integrated amps with pre-out/main-in connectors so that I can put DSP in between for proper subwoofer integration and room correction. I used an NAD C326BEE this way.

Hey Tim, thanks for chiming in. Hope you've been well. Just when I thought I had made up my mind, you come in and drop some knowledge haha. I'm falling victim to wanting the next best thing with every review I read / watch. I started at the Bro2 and ended up at the Revel M16. Think it's worth it to go Polk R200 / Revel M16 over Denton and 12.1?

It'll be a smart TV. I have a Jamo sub and minidsp already, but I've basically hit a wall in choosing an amp/dac. I'm good with either separates or integrated, but trying to find something with an optical input, controller and no bluetooth, as well as everything you mentioned, within a certain price range, has been a bit frustrating. Was trying to stay between $300-$400.

Have any recommendations? (I don't mind buying used).

 

[TimW]

Hey Tim, thanks for chiming in. Hope you've been well. Just when I thought I had made up my mind, you come in and drop some knowledge haha. I'm falling victim to wanting the next best thing with every review I read / watch. I started at the Bro2 and ended up at the Revel M16. Think it's worth it to go Polk R200 / Revel M16 over Denton and 12.1?

It'll be a smart TV. I have a Jamo sub and minidsp already, but I've basically hit a wall in choosing an amp/dac. I'm good with either separates or integrated, but trying to find something with an optical input, controller and no bluetooth, as well as everything you mentioned, within a certain price range, has been a bit frustrating. Was trying to stay between $300-$400.

Have any recommendations? (I don't mind buying used).

I have been well, thanks for asking. How are you? Seems like you have a lot of choices to make haha. Those are all probably pretty good speakers, but I haven't listened to any. Based on measurements I would probably choose the Revels with their better directivity. Speakers with good directivity respond to EQ better. I would probably pick those or the Polk over the Wharfedale's due to their larger woofer size. Here is a comparison of the two:

My personal preference is for larger mid-woofers made of non-resonant material, soft dome tweeters, and and abundance of amplifier power. That's all based on fallible, non-scientific personal experiences so take it with a grain of salt. If you find it hard to make a decision on the speakers, asking your wife which one she prefers the looks of may make things easier.

As for the electronics, which miniDSP do you have? Do you have a mic to use with it? As I mentioned I owned an NAD C320BEE that I really liked. I had to recap it because they built it with a bad batch of caps that year, but afterwards it performed decently well. I just liked the functionality and form factor of an integrated amp with remote but with my miniDSP 2x4 inserted in-between pre-amp and amp for all the EQ goodness. The only downside was I had multiple D/A conversions and limited power. There are newer NAD integrated amps like the C356BEE and C355BEE with more power that you may be able to find used if you want a setup like that. There are also older Yamaha integrated amps like the AX-596 which had pre-out/main-in connections and also have decent performance using their ToP-ART circuit.

As for modern products, I don't know any with good performance and a price that low with all of the features you want. One product that comes to mind is the Emotiva BasX TA1 which has pre-outs and a built in crossover. The crossover prevents the main speakers from playing bass which reduces distortion and gains you headroom. This won't allow you to EQ the main speakers but you could still use the miniDSP with your subwoofer.

If you didn't care about using your miniDSP there are other options like AVRs or modern integrated amps. None of the solutions I've listed are very small or simple, but if you want small size and high tech/performance the price goes up considerably. AVRs are huge but you get pretty much everything you want built into one box for cheap.

 

[chang]

I have been well, thanks for asking. How are you? Seems like you have a lot of choices to make haha. Those are all probably pretty good speakers, but I haven't listened to any. Based on measurements I would probably choose the Revels with their better directivity. Speakers with good directivity respond to EQ better. I would probably pick those or the Polk over the Wharfedale's due to their larger woofer size. Here is a comparison of the two:
View attachment 247090

My personal preference is for larger mid-woofers made of non-resonant material, soft dome tweeters, and and abundance of amplifier power. That's all based on fallible, non-scientific personal experiences so take it with a grain of salt. If you find it hard to make a decision on the speakers, asking your wife which one she prefers the looks of may make things easier.

As for the electronics, which miniDSP do you have? Do you have a mic to use with it? As I mentioned I owned an NAD C320BEE that I really liked. I had to recap it because they built it with a bad batch of caps that year, but afterwards it performed decently well. I just liked the functionality and form factor of an integrated amp with remote but with my miniDSP 2x4 inserted in-between pre-amp and amp for all the EQ goodness. The only downside was I had multiple D/A conversions and limited power. There are newer NAD integrated amps like the C356BEE and C355BEE with more power that you may be able to find used if you want a setup like that. There are also older Yamaha integrated amps like the AX-596 which had pre-out/main-in connections and also have decent performance using their ToP-ART circuit.

As for modern products, I don't know any with good performance and a price that low with all of the features you want. One product that comes to mind is the Emotiva BasX TA1 which has pre-outs and a built in crossover. The crossover prevents the main speakers from playing bass which reduces distortion and gains you headroom. This won't allow you to EQ the main speakers but you could still use the miniDSP with your subwoofer.

If you didn't care about using your miniDSP there are other options like AVRs or modern integrated amps. None of the solutions I've listed are very small or simple, but if you want small size and high tech/performance the price goes up considerably. AVRs are huge but you get pretty much everything you want built into one box for cheap.

Doing good also, thxs. Happy to hear you say that since I've been leaning towards the Revels. Haha, the wife likes the wood finished Polks better, go figure... but can't blame her. Appreciate the graph.

I have the mini HD, but not the mic yet. If I stuck with the dsp, all I would really need is the mic and a speaker amp, correct?

An all-in-one unit would definitely be convenient, but let me ask you... is there really a substantial difference (under $600) between an integrative amp (Iota, Emotiva, NAD) and separates (ex. Topping e30 ii with aiyima A07)? Even with some of the int. amps, I would need a dac for the toslink connection... for instance if I got the NAD 316.

I could probably make an AVR work, but I'm saving this for my last option

 

[Overseas]

An advice from Europe to go with Focal or Triangle

 

[TimW]

I have the mini HD, but not the mic yet. If I stuck with the dsp, all I would really need is the mic and a speaker amp, correct?

Yep. The 2x4 HD has multiple inputs (including optical) and variable outputs so it can be used as a preamp. Then all you need is a power amp for the speakers. An integrated amp is just a preamp and power amp built into one box. The new affordable integrated amps typically have optical input but don't usually have a way to EQ or crossover the speakers.

I have used the 2x4 HD as a preamp before connected directly to a Niles SI-275 power amp amongst others. Along with a couple subs. It sounded very good after EQ and crossovers were set but that takes quite a bit of work since it's a manual process. The nice thing about AVR's and other devices with built in automated room correction (ARC) is that they make things easy. They also usually come with the necessary mic. Some compact options with these features would be:

NAD M10 V2 - Dirac Live, one of the best ARC systems
miniDSP SHD Power - Dirac Live, I now use a regular SHD and like everything about it except for the streamer
ELAC DS-A101-G - ELAC Auto EQ, uses your phone as a microphone and I have no idea how well it works

As you can see, quite expensive and measured performance probably isn't state of the art. The reason people recommend separate components is because they can pick pieces with state of the art or at least very good measured performance. Personally I can't hear the difference between electronics that measure extremely well (120dB SINAD) and ones that just measure okay (80dB SINAD). That's 0.01% vs 0.0001% distortion btw.

As for your last option, here are some compellingly cheap ones:

Denon AVR-X1600H - Audyssey MultEQ XT, I believe this is the better version of Audyssey that allows use of their app
YAMAHA RX-V4A - YPAO correction
YAMAHA RX-A780 - YPAO R.S.C. correction (better)

 

[chang]

Yep. The 2x4 HD has multiple inputs (including optical) and variable outputs so it can be used as a preamp. Then all you need is a power amp for the speakers. An integrated amp is just a preamp and power amp built into one box. The new affordable integrated amps typically have optical input but don't usually have a way to EQ or crossover the speakers.

I have used the 2x4 HD as a preamp before connected directly to a Niles SI-275 power amp amongst others. Along with a couple subs. It sounded very good after EQ and crossovers were set but that takes quite a bit of work since it's a manual process. The nice thing about AVR's and other devices with built in automated room correction (ARC) is that they make things easy. They also usually come with the necessary mic. Some compact options with these features would be:

NAD M10 V2 - Dirac Live, one of the best ARC systems
miniDSP SHD Power - Dirac Live, I now use a regular SHD and like everything about it except for the streamer
ELAC DS-A101-G - ELAC Auto EQ, uses your phone as a microphone and I have no idea how well it works

As you can see, quite expensive and measured performance probably isn't state of the art. The reason people recommend separate components is because they can pick pieces with state of the art or at least very good measured performance. Personally I can't hear the difference between electronics that measure extremely well (120dB SINAD) and ones that just measure okay (80dB SINAD). That's 0.01% vs 0.0001% distortion btw.

As for your last option, here are some compellingly cheap ones:

Denon AVR-X1600H - Audyssey MultEQ XT, I believe this is the better version of Audyssey that allows use of their app
YAMAHA RX-V4A - YPAO correction
YAMAHA RX-A780 - YPAO R.S.C. correction (better)

Didn't even know they made units with ARC systems, that's pretty damn cool. Unfortunately I have a sensitivity to emf's, which makes finding a unit without bluetooth / wifi a pain in the ass. I wish they had the option to turn off the bluetooth... would make this process much easier.

I was really close to pulling the trigger on the Cambridge AXA35, but the fixed line out for the sub was a killer.

The minidsp offers ARC if I get the mic?

The units I've found so far without bluetooth and wifi are the Iotavx sa3, Yamaha as301/501, and arcam sa10.

You think the affordable chinese separates are a good alternative to the integrated amps w/ dacs?

 

[TimW]

Didn't even know they made units with ARC systems, that's pretty damn cool. Unfortunately I have a sensitivity to emf's, which makes finding a unit without bluetooth / wifi a pain in the ass. I wish they had the option to turn off the bluetooth... would make this process much easier.

I was really close to pulling the trigger on the Cambridge AXA35, but the fixed line out for the sub was a killer.

The minidsp offers ARC if I get the mic?

The units I've found so far without bluetooth and wifi are the Iotavx sa3, Yamaha as301/501, and arcam sa10.

You think the affordable chinese separates are a good alternative to the integrated amps w/ dacs?

All of those options, other than the Cambridge of course, have a single RCA pre-out for your subwoofer. You can connect your sub to this through the miniDSP and perform room correction just for sub frequencies. Your miniDSP does not do ARC unless you pay $199 to upgrade it with Dirac Live. You will need a miniDSP UMIK-1 to do room correction with your miniDSP.

Of all of those integrated amp options, I would choose the Yamaha A-S501 since it has the most output power.

The affordable chinese separates are a good alternative, it just depends on what you value. The Topping E30 and Ayima A07 would work just fine for instance. But if you use those with your miniDSP you've got three little boxes each with their own volume control and finishes.

 

[chang]

All of those options, other than the Cambridge of course, have a single RCA pre-out for your subwoofer. You can connect your sub to this through the miniDSP and perform room correction just for sub frequencies. Your miniDSP does not do ARC unless you pay $199 to upgrade it with Dirac Live. You will need a miniDSP UMIK-1 to do room correction with your miniDSP.

Of all of those integrated amp options, I would choose the Yamaha A-S501 since it has the most output power.

The affordable chinese separates are a good alternative, it just depends on what you value. The Topping E30 and Ayima A07 would work just fine for instance. But if you use those with your miniDSP you've got three little boxes each with their own volume control and finishes.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Mic is definitely on the list of things to buy

Still a bit confused... Mind offering a little clarity on the AXA35 and sub connection? Since I can run the sub through the minidsp, the fixed out isn't an issue, right? That way I can control both the speaker and sub volume through the minidsp, and not have to individually?

Edit: It just dawned on me what you were saying about the NAD326 and sub out haha. That's definitely another option now if I can find one at a good price or the AXA35 doesn't work out

 

[TimW]

Thanks for the recommendation.

Mic is definitely on the list of things to buy

Still a bit confused... Mind offering a little clarity on the AXA35 and sub connection? Since I can run the sub through the minidsp, the fixed out isn't an issue, right? That way I can control both the speaker and sub volume through the minidsp, and not have to individually?

Edit: It just dawned on me what you were saying about the NAD326 and sub out haha. That's definitely another option now if I can find one at a good price or the AXA35 doesn't work out

Something like the NAD326 gives you pre-out and main-in. The pre-out connection comes after the input selection, volume control, and tone controls. The main-in connection connects directly to the power amplifier, which just takes that signal and makes it bigger to power the speakers. If you inserted the miniDSP in between the pre-out and main-in connections you can use it to do crossovers for the speakers and sub and EQ each individually. You would still be able to use the volume control and input selection features of the NAD but you wouldn't be able to use the Toslink input of the miniDSP while using those. Here is a diagram illustrating this connection:

In this case, the Preamp and the Stereo amplifier are built into the NAD.

The AXA35 does not allow you to do this. There is a record output that mirrors the input selection:

If you connected the miniDSP to that record output you would have to use it to adjust subwoofer volume while using the Cambridge volume knob to control the main speakers separately. Not a workable solution IMO. You could use the miniDSP as volume control for the speakers and sub and use its Toslink connection for the TV but then you would just be using the AXA35 as a power amp. You wouldn't use its volume knob or input selection. There are far better power amps for that price if that's the route you want to take. Here is a diagram of that basic configuration, they're showing the computer connected with the mic for room correction setup, but it would be the same except with Toslink to your TV.

 

[paul8088]

Looking for a pair of bookshelf speakers for a nice & simple 2.1 setup, but I'm having a difficult time deciding and looking for advice. Don't know whether to start with something like the Triangle Bro2's or go with the Polk R200's (and anything in between).

I've narrowed it down (as of now) to

1. Triangle Bro2
2. Monoprice Encore B6
3. Wharfedale Denton 80th
4. Polk R200

It's for a medium sized living room space. I'll be sitting 12 ft away and mostly listening at low to medium volume. I have not picked out an amp yet.

Any suggestions / recommendations are welcomed.

Thanks

I have about $5k and don't know what speakers to buy either.

Considered Klipsch Forte 4 and Focal Aria 926 or Revel Performa3 F206.

 

[Tupisac]

I second miniDSP option. Corrections make huge difference.

For the same reason I think passive speakers are a legacy tech. Active crossovers and individually tuned class D amps for each driver make wonders.

 

[TimW]

I have about $5k and don't know what speakers to buy either.

Considered Klipsch Forte 4 and Focal Aria 926 or Revel Performa3 F206.

Add the new Ascend Acoustics ELX Towers to your list... with klippel optimized performance

 

[chang]

Something like the NAD326 gives you pre-out and main-in. The pre-out connection comes after the input selection, volume control, and tone controls. The main-in connection connects directly to the power amplifier, which just takes that signal and makes it bigger to power the speakers. If you inserted the miniDSP in between the pre-out and main-in connections you can use it to do crossovers for the speakers and sub and EQ each individually. You would still be able to use the volume control and input selection features of the NAD but you wouldn't be able to use the Toslink input of the miniDSP while using those. Here is a diagram illustrating this connection:

In this case, the Preamp and the Stereo amplifier are built into the NAD.

The AXA35 does not allow you to do this. There is a record output that mirrors the input selection:
View attachment 247363

If you connected the miniDSP to that record output you would have to use it to adjust subwoofer volume while using the Cambridge volume knob to control the main speakers separately. Not a workable solution IMO. You could use the miniDSP as volume control for the speakers and sub and use its Toslink connection for the TV but then you would just be using the AXA35 as a power amp. You wouldn't use its volume knob or input selection. There are far better power amps for that price if that's the route you want to take. Here is a diagram of that basic configuration, they're showing the computer connected with the mic for room correction setup, but it would be the same except with Toslink to your TV.

Think I might be even more confused with this picture since the NAD contains both the pre out and main in. Would the NAD be considered the pre amp or stereo amp in this case? So in order to use the TV as the source, I would have to purchase a dac to run toslink from TV to NAD?

The second picture is exactly what I was picturing with the Cambridge. So I wouldn't be able to use the axa35 for tone controls? If so, does the minidsp offer tone controls or would I need a separate? What power amp would you recommend for this setup?

 

[TimW]

Think I might be even more confused with this picture since the NAD contains both the pre out and main in. Would the NAD be considered the pre amp or stereo amp in this case? So in order to use the TV as the source, I would have to purchase a dac to run toslink from TV to NAD?

The NAD is the pre amp AND the stereo amp. It is two devices in one connected with jumpers from the pre-out to the main-in. You would need to use a separate DAC to connect Toslink to the NAD.

The second picture is exactly what I was picturing with the Cambridge. So I wouldn't be able to use the axa35 for tone controls? If so, does the minidsp offer tone controls or would I need a separate? What power amp would you recommend for this setup?

If you're just using the AXA35 as a power amp you would have to make sure to never touch the volume control or input switching on it. You could still use its tone control but that wouldn't affect the subwoofer. For instance if you turned up bass on the AXA35, it wouldn't increase the subwoofer volume. I wouldn't recommend using the AXA35 as a power amplifier because it only outputs a measly 35 watts. Much of what you pay for with it is the other functionality that you wouldn't need.

The miniDSP has multiple inputs that you can switch between, does volume control, and has 4 presets. You can create any kind of tone you want with it but it's more complicated than simple bass and treble knobs. Personally, that's what I use the different presets for. One that's neutral, one with extra bass, and maybe one with subwoofers turned off for late night listening.

As I mentioned I've used a miniDSP 2x4 HD this way with a Niles SI-275 power amp. I like these types of simple amps with auto-on functionality because whenever you start playing something the system just works. A newer model from them with the same functionality would be the SI-2100. I have also owned Parasound, Rotel, Dayton and AudioSource amplifiers with the same functionality.

 

[chang]

The NAD is the pre amp AND the stereo amp. It is two devices in one connected with jumpers from the pre-out to the main-in. You would need to use a separate DAC to connect Toslink to the NAD.

If you're just using the AXA35 as a power amp you would have to make sure to never touch the volume control or input switching on it. You could still use its tone control but that wouldn't affect the subwoofer. For instance if you turned up bass on the AXA35, it wouldn't increase the subwoofer volume. I wouldn't recommend using the AXA35 as a power amplifier because it only outputs a measly 35 watts. Much of what you pay for with it is the other functionality that you wouldn't need.

The miniDSP has multiple inputs that you can switch between, does volume control, and has 4 presets. You can create any kind of tone you want with it but it's more complicated than simple bass and treble knobs. Personally, that's what I use the different presets for. One that's neutral, one with extra bass, and maybe one with subwoofers turned off for late night listening.

As I mentioned I've used a miniDSP 2x4 HD this way with a Niles SI-275 power amp. I like these types of simple amps with auto-on functionality because whenever you start playing something the system just works. A newer model from them with the same functionality would be the SI-2100. I have also owned Parasound, Rotel, Dayton and AudioSource amplifiers with the same functionality.

Sorry, I should've been more clear... as far as the diagram, sounds like the minidsp goes between the NAD and speakers?

Thanks for the clarification. Great idea for the presets, a little work upfront and then everything is set (for the time being).

Definitely appreciate the recommendation, I really didn't want to start researching a whole new style of amp.

Would you endorse one setup over another for a beginner (me)?

 

[steve59]

 

[steve59]

Vienna Acoustics Hayden grand. I don't know how they measure but I always liked their tonal balance. They look good too.

 

[FrantzM]

Would support that.

+1

 

[TimW]

Sorry, I should've been more clear... as far as the diagram, sounds like the minidsp goes between the NAD and speakers?