ESS THD ‘Hump’ Investigation

[rajapruk]

”68 is the new 38” as Mick Jagger once said.

 

[miero]

BTW, do you know which DAC is using chief engineer of ESS Martin Mallinson?
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[RayDunzl]

”68 is the new 38” as Mick Jagger once said.

Soon to be adjusted to "78", I suppose...

Born: July 26, 1943 (age 75 years)

We still have yet another chance to watch him age live...

 

[hetzer]

Pro series are 8-channel chips and the price is at least $50(except for es9xx6 lineup) if you buy only one. But q2m, c2m, k2m lineups are at $10~15 boundary and these are 2-channel.

 

[Pluto]

Pro series are 8-channel chips and the price is at least $50

q2m, c2m, k2m lineups are at $10~15 boundary

On that basis alone, counterfeit would be a potentially profitable crime.

Are the ’pro’ devices pin-compatible with the lower range? Obviously, successful criminal counterfeit is dependent upon ready interchange of the devices in question. A little birdie in the semicon industry once told me that that it is likely that future designs of expensive premium devices would not be pin-compatible with cheaper devices precisely to avoid the problem of easy counterfeting.

 

[mansr]

Are the ’pro’ devices pin-compatible with the lower range?

They don't even use the same package. ES9038PRO is a 64-pin TQFP while ES9038Q2M is a 30-pin QFN.

 

[Shangri-La]

So what is the consensus of the ESS hump in real-world listening? Audible in a $2000 setup, $20,000 setup?

 

[Pluto]

ES9038PRO is a 64-pin TQFP while ES9038Q2M is a 30-pin QFN

I think that effectively rules out counterfeit in this context

 

[Pluto]

So what is the consensus of the ESS hump in real-world listening?

Not audible by Homo Sapiens, certainly not when listening to normal music at a sensible volume.

But, I suspect that this may become something of a noose around ESS's neck and equally, a ‘cause célèbre’ amongst those who would criticize ΔΣ converters in general and ESS in particular.

 

[Pluto]

Audible in a $2000 setup, $20,000 setup?

Please, PLEASE – eliminate this notion that there is any correlation between the cost of a system and the audio quality it can achieve.

 

[Shangri-La]

Please, PLEASE – eliminate this notion that there is any correlation between the cost of a system and the audio quality it can achieve.

No need to steer to that 'cause célèbre'. You know in the context I was referring to listening experience in lower/higher quality system.

 

[SemperUnum]

You know in the context I was referring to listening experience in lower/higher quality system.

So (again) you state that there is a correlation between price and lower/higher quality of equipment?

Please understand that second guessing a person's meaning on the internet is pretty hard.

Pluto and me were apparently not the only ones who got the wrong message from your post. Glad you fixed it though.

 

[jaytrinitron]

This thread has been a very interesting read. While the ESS hump is apparently not audible, aren't small differences in IMD the easiest for humans to hear a difference in?

Even if it is not audible, it would be nice from a peace-of-mind/engineering perspective to eliminate this the way Benchmark has.
And this does beg the question: Under, say, $600, are there DACS that perform as well as or near to the best performing DACs Amir has reviewed that do not have the ESS hump? I cannot recall any, but I have not read every DAC review.

 

[jaytrinitron]

On the NX4 DSD x-axis shows Vrms and on the DX7s x-axis shows dBFS, different measuring criteria in the end.

So the NX4 dsd does have the hump then, as expected? I would be really happy if it didn't 'cause that's my only DAC, haha.

 

[DonH56]

It is generally accepted that IMD is easier to hear because it generates non-harmonic frequencies. But with a movie or music as a source it takes a lot more distortion than most think to be audible. Typically 1% or more, -40 dB, before you can switch it in and out and have someone notice, and sometimes not even then, and much higher for deep bass.

I agree the anal design engineer in me says "I don't care, kill the hump!"

 

[Zoide]

It is generally accepted that IMD is easier to hear because it generates non-harmonic frequencies. But with a movie or music as a source it takes a lot more distortion than most think to be audible. Typically 1% or more, -40 dB, before you can switch it in and out and have someone notice, and sometimes not even then, and much higher for deep bass.

I agree the anal design engineer in me says "I don't care, kill the hump!"

I guess it also depends on what you mean by "audible":

1) Something that you immediately notice upon blind A/B

2) Something you don't notice immediately, but which after prolonged listening leads to more "fatigue" or some other way in which the experience is negatively affected

 

[Shangri-La]

And this does beg the question: Under, say, $600, are there DACS that perform as well as or near to the best performing DACs Amir has reviewed that do not have the ESS hump? I cannot recall any, but I have not read every DAC review.

Not sure what the best DAC is reviewed here, which I'm very interested in knowing, but the Chord Mojo still seems to be the DAC to beat.

 

[maxxevv]

The Mojo has been measured.
Do go dig that up from the forum threads.

 

[chosen_too]

I wonder if this hump is critical for daily music listening (fatigue). Anyone compared sound to AKM based devices? All this fuzz pushing me to get rid from d50 and move to jds El dac 0_o

 

[Veri]

I wonder if this hump is critical for daily music listening (fatigue). Anyone compared sound to AKM based devices? All this fuzz pushing me to get rid from d50 and move to jds El dac 0_o

Very unlikely unless you listen at 90-100dB.