• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

ATC speakers / Monitors

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,416
Likes
5,262
What do you think about the dynamic capabilities speakers have in general, do you think Klaus Heinz was wrong about that too when he says much more development is needed on that front? Just playing a single accord on his grand piano tells him there's a lot of work needed, a long way to go before loudspeakers will be able to reproduce that.
This is something that I think is one of ATC's strong points, overall - their dynamic "jump" to me gets surprisingly close to compression drivers without the risk of bad shouty horns.
I happen to have speakers that blow Klaus and is grand piano out of the window so I'm not sure what to think of that.
I think it's a consequence of efficiency and available amp power, tbh. I can't make any solid claims on that but it is what people say (even here on ASR) about horn loaded compression drivers.
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,343
Likes
1,486
I happen to have speakers that blow Klaus and is grand piano out of the window so I'm not sure what to think of that. How a piano is recorded and how it sound behind the keyboard is a totally different experience, so challenging to compare.
It doesn't have to be a totally different experience, the only things that are needed are microphones/recording equipment that can capture the complete sound of that grand piano without any loss or add something that's not there to begin with, and some transducers that got the capability of reproducing that sound to the fullest degree.
 

Geert

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
1,955
Likes
3,570
It doesn't have to be a totally different experience, the only things that are needed are microphones/recording equipment that can capture the complete sound of that grand piano without any loss or add something that's not there to begin with, and some transducers that got the capability of reproducing that sound to the fullest degree.

Sitting behind the keyboard or at a distance is a totally different experience. Behind the keyboard you don't hear the total sound in the same way the audience hears it. Piano's are not recorded (only) at the players position.

The mic's and speakers themselves are not the problem. Stereo reproduction is.
 

klangfilm

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2021
Messages
25
Likes
30
This is something that I think is one of ATC's strong points, overall - their dynamic "jump" to me gets surprisingly close to compression drivers without the risk of bad shouty horns.Le
No, not even close to a Klangfilm or a Onken compression driver unfortunately (to name just a few) !
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,343
Likes
1,486
Sitting behind the keyboard or at a distance is a totally different experience. Behind the keyboard you don't hear the total sound in the same way the audience hears it. Piano's are not recorded (only) at the players position.

The mic's and speakers themselves are not the problem. Stereo reproduction is.
Well, many recordings aim for a hyper-realistic experience catching the sound of sitting right next to the keyboards of a piano, those recordings should obviously sound the way Klaus Heinz expects them to sound. I can't see how stereo reproduction has anything to do with that particular problem, the sound of the instrument should sound like the instrument no matter the speaker configuration. Mind to explain what you mean by that?
 

Geert

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
1,955
Likes
3,570
Well, many recordings aim for a hyper-realistic experience catching the sound of sitting right next to the keyboards of a piano

That would be a negligible amount compared to all piano recordings I guess. Do you have examples?

That sound is also not the "hyper-realistic experience", because it's not how audience (and a lot of music composers) listens to a piano. For most audio genres it would be experience as totally wrong.

I can't see how stereo reproduction has anything to do with that particular problem, the sound of the instrument should sound like the instrument no matter the speaker configuration.

You can not replicate the 3D sound experience of an instrument in a room via 2 speakers. Especially not an instrument the size of a piano.
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,343
Likes
1,486
That would be a negligible amount compared to all piano recordings I guess. Do you have examples?

That sound is also not the "hyper-realistic experience", because it's not how audience (and a lot of music composers) listens to a piano. For most audio genres it would be experience as totally wrong.



You can not replicate the 3D sound experience of an instrument in a room via 2 speakers. Especially not an instrument the size of a piano.

Have a listen to Nick Cave - Idiot Prayer

It's hyper-realistic in the way that you get the experience of listening to the piano as if you were sitting next to Nick Cave right by the piano (or from underneath the piano as in this case), not many in a normal audience will hear it like that. It's not unrealistic, but we as listeners of the reproduction sound of the piano will all get that experience. The sound of that recording is quite good, but in direct comparison to the real thing, I'm sure we all would come to the same conclusion that it doesn't come close.

It's not about the experience of having the actual instrument in the listening room or hearing a fully convincing 3D space. The things I talk about are the close-up experience of the transient response and the extremely clean and undistorted sound that it produces, a powerful tone of the acoustic instrument's complete body.
 
Last edited:

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,211
Likes
2,613
funny exercise on the tonal balance of things of my setup, using similar looking (1/3) smoothing in my LP, the tonal balance looked really.. similar imo and that it sounds good to my layman ears anyway. for dynamic range I somehow thinks, you need to have those swings and really loud average SPL to really appreciate. thing important IMO is you need so much dynamic or SPL capability when in your listening position, you can comfortably listen and enjoy music, banging high SPL for everything don't sounded like an good idea to me
Room First Measurement NO XOVER.jpg
 

SoundGuy

Active Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2022
Messages
115
Likes
120
I recommend those interested in testing dynamics on their system should simply give it a shot and try Sheffield Labs Drum Tracks and grab a sound meter.

Turn it up to 105 db average level with 110-115 db peaks (all measured at the listening position which will be at least 2 or 3 meters back). This recording sounds quite realistic and compares to what you might expect to experience sitting 10-20 feet back from a real drummer at a show. Your speakers need to be capable individually of 115db continuous level at 1 meter while remaining nice and clean and undistorted. Note that most domestic speakers individually can’t handle more than 95db at 2 meters without compression/distortion and horns suffer from non-linear compression of air in the throat when approaching 110 db (shouty AND distorted) as the throat will easily be 10-15db higher level than what exits the end of the horn.

An acoustic drum set is tremendously dynamic. Much more than a piano. Most drummers use hearing protection (Or have lost hearing)
 

SoundGuy

Active Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2022
Messages
115
Likes
120
Have a listen to Nick Cave - Idiot Prayer
will re-listen to this one - love Nick Cave - thx for suggestion!

In return, try this: Homage to Duke by Dave Grusin - lovely jazz piano and beautifully recorded with realistic dynamics.
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,211
Likes
2,613
I recommend those interested in testing dynamics on their system should simply give it a shot and try Sheffield Labs Drum Tracks and grab a sound meter.

Turn it up to 105 db average level with 110-115 db peaks (all measured at the listening position which will be at least 2 or 3 meters back). This recording sounds quite realistic and compares to what you might expect to experience sitting 10-20 feet back from a real drummer at a show. Your speakers need to be capable individually of 115db continuous level at 1 meter while remaining nice and clean and undistorted. Note that most domestic speakers individually can’t handle more than 95db at 2 meters without compression/distortion and horns suffer from non-linear compression of air in the throat when approaching 110 db (shouty AND distorted) as the throat will easily be 10-15db higher level than what exits the end of the horn.

An acoustic drum set is tremendously dynamic. Much more than a piano. Most drummers use hearing protection (Or have lost hearing)
My doctor said that trying to listen to that level at 2-3m is… a fast track of going to deaf…
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,343
Likes
1,486
will re-listen to this one - love Nick Cave - thx for suggestion!

In return, try this: Homage to Duke by Dave Grusin - lovely jazz piano and beautifully recorded with realistic dynamics.
Thank you, I'm listening now.

What a luxury we have nowadays. Get a suggestion, find the music on Qobuz or another streaming platform, and just have a listen. :)
 

SoundGuy

Active Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2022
Messages
115
Likes
120
My doctor said that trying to listen to that level at 2-3m is… a fast track of going to deaf…
sorry wha?
 

SoundGuy

Active Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2022
Messages
115
Likes
120
Have a listen to Nick Cave - Idiot Prayer

It's hyper-realistic in the way that you get the experience of listening to the piano as if you were sitting next to Nick Cave right by the piano (or from underneath the piano as in this case), not many in a normal audience will hear it like that. It's not unrealistic, but we as listeners of the reproduction sound of the piano will all get that experience. The sound of that recording is quite good, but in direct comparison to the real thing, I'm sure we all would come to the same conclusion that it doesn't come close.

It's not about the experience of having the actual instrument in the listening room or hearing a fully convincing 3D space. The things I talk about are the close-up experience of the transient response and the extremely clean and undistorted sound that it produces, a powerful tone of the acoustic instrument's complete body.
You can hear his feet, piano pedal and body movements. A bit distracting.
 

caught gesture

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
459
Likes
1,023
Location
Italia
You can hear his feet, piano pedal and body movements. A bit distracting.
Isn’t that a bit like saying a close mic’d vocal that includes the sound of the breath intake, an acoustic guitar recording that has fret squeaks, etc. A realistic closely mic’d recording has these artefacts. Some people, myself included, enjoy the sound of this authenticity. No engineer has spent time cutting them out to please the listener who wants the intimacy but only the sanitised version.
 

Geert

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
1,955
Likes
3,570
Isn’t that a bit like saying a close mic’d vocal that includes the sound of the breath intake, an acoustic guitar recording that has fret squeaks, etc. A realistic closely mic’d recording has these artefacts.

Seems there's some confusion about realistic versus closed miked. Nike Caves recording is closed miked. Close miked piano's are mainly used in pop and rock music. On this recording it's probably also because of acoustics and visuals. However, the only person for who a close miked piano sounds realistic is a pianist. Other people don't listen to a piano at less than a meter distance. A grand piano is not made for that, it can reach deafening levels. Close miking of instruments is almost never considered to be realistic, as often it emphasises a part of the sound or it requires you to use multiple microphones to capture the total sound. Just like with a close miked drum set. The term intimate you used is more appropriate.

Just saying this as a pro sound engineer, and amateur piano player.
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,211
Likes
2,613
My doctor said that trying to listen to that level at 2-3m is… a fast track of going to deaf…
85 Decibels (dB) - the "Action Level" where hearing protection is required.
90 dB - the OSHA, 8 hour average exposure limit.
100 dB - exposures longer than 15 minutes are not recommended.
110 dB - regular exposure of more than 1 minute risks permanent hearing loss.

Even at 3m, average of 105db is… 95db average, if you get closer, at 2m it’s 99db, a good way to get hearing loss and tinnitus
 

caught gesture

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
459
Likes
1,023
Location
Italia
Seems there's some confusion about realistic versus closed miked. Nike Caves recording is closed miked. Close miked piano's are mainly used in pop and rock music. On this recording it's probably also because of acoustics and visuals. However, the only person for who a close miked piano sounds realistic is a pianist. Other people don't listen to a piano at less than a meter distance. A grand piano is not made for that, it can reach deafening levels. Close miking of instruments is almost never considered to be realistic, as often it emphasises a part of the sound or it requires you to use multiple microphones to capture the total sound. Just like with a close miked drum set. The term intimate you used is more appropriate.

Just saying this as a pro sound engineer, and amateur piano player.
Thanks for the information on the correct terminology. I would say one thing about your comment on being close to a piano. Plenty of people, myself included, grew up with an upright piano in the home. It was a regular activity to be right next to the piano as it was being played when family/friends were singing. I’m sure richer people had baby or even grand pianos in the home, my grandparents did. A piano does not have to be played loudly. Yes, it takes some level of skill and control to play quietly involving using the weight of your arm and to transfer the weight from finger to finger smoothly and using minimum motion.
 

klangfilm

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2021
Messages
25
Likes
30
To test the dynamics (and other things) of your system, you can try some recordings from "Les percussions de Strasbourg".
 

Tangband

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 3, 2019
Messages
2,994
Likes
2,801
Location
Sweden
I'm new here, so pardon me if I'm barging in. I've been reading the posts in this thread, and I think there might be some slight misunderstanding regarding recording and studio work.
.Someone here had the opinion that professionals need monitors with the flattest and truest response. For project engineers, that may (or may not) be true. For editing and mixing , it is not. Audio professionals are involved in one thing and one thing ONLY; producing a finished product for their client, and that means a finished product that will sell. There are no other criteria. If the latest mega-money fad is deepfake cricket sex, then that's what they will be involved in doing. If they didn't follow that trend, they wouldn't make money.
And making money is priority number one. If they don't make money, they won't be there for their clients, and if they don't have clients, they'll have to get a job as a ditch digger. Most audio professionals make lousy ditch diggers.
So the studio personnel work at producing the finished product for the client. And like any workmen, they have their tools. Plumbers have tools, carpenters have tools, and audio personnel have tools. Tools for primary capture, tools for editing, tools for mixing, and tools to evaluate the finished product. Some tools are sophisticated and refined, and some less so.
If the tools work, then they're good, no matter how cheap they may be. If the tools don't work, then they're not good, no matter how expensive they may be. One carpenter may use Skil, one may use Milwaukee, and another may use DeWalt. But they all get the job done.
One good editor may need screeching high-mid response, to hit his target exactly. Another good editor may need screeching low-treble response. And they may not want to use EQ to get that sound; they may want to rely on native characteristics for consistency.
A mixer may need headroom more than anything, because he may need to compare raw-vs.-finished levels involving up to 30 dB difference. Some clients may want a mix that throws away the treble and boosts the bass, others may not involve themselves with bass at all. Instead, they may want to boost the mids.
As in all things, the client checks the end product and the producer okays it. The group may go back and forth several times to get the finished product.
The end product for pop usually ends up sounding NOTHING like the primary tracks.
BUT ...... then the studio personnel turn right around and work with the next client, who wants the best recording of a violin concerto. And the studio can do that. They'll probably reach into their toolbag and pull out a slightly different set of tools, but they can do it. Plumbers change tools, carpenters change tools, and audio personnel change tools. All in the interest of achieving their ends.
If you, as a client, pay for fad, you'll get fad. If you, as a client, pay for true, natural sound, you'll get true, natural sound. It will still be (maybe heavily) processed, mind you. Most people have no idea how much signal manipulation goes into 'purist" recordings.
And the people giving you that finished "purist" product? They may (or may not) be using the same screeching or booming or blatting monitors as before. They use them because they know them. They know how they correlate, both to the raw signal and to the finished product. They know and understand how to use them to produce this, or that, or some other thing.
They know how to use their tools.
And that's what counts. That, ..... and money.
What youre saying here is probably true - meaning most popular music masters are made for cheap portable bluetooth devices. The circle of confusion that Dr. Toole use to speak about is real. Its a commercial business, and absolute high fidelity is ( probably ) only 1 % or less of the population really interested of.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom