What makes high end processors sound better (or do they?)

[danstahl]

I often hear subjective comments that more expensive processors create a more enveloping soundfield or provide greater detail.

I understand how this may be the case for proprietary high-end room-correction such as Trinnov and Lyngdorf, where less expensive processors use more common correction such as Dirac or Audyssey. However, this doesn't explain why someone prefers the HTP-1 over the latest Onkyo, which both use Dirac.

Is there something beyond DAC quality and room correction that could make a processor sound better than another?

 

[Golfx]

I often hear subjective comments that more expensive processors create a more enveloping soundfield or provide greater detail.

I understand how this may be the case for proprietary high-end room-correction such as Trinnov and Lyngdorf, where less expensive processors use more common correction such as Dirac or Audyssey. However, this doesn't explain why someone prefers the HTP-1 over the latest Onkyo, which both use Dirac.

Is there something beyond DAC quality and room correction that could make a processor sound better than another?

I would suspect confirmation bias rather than competent blind comparisons. Although Marantz intentionally adds HDAMS which add a audible distortion that some listeners describe as a warmer sound.

 

[Rip City Dave]

Just find out if the processor is endorsed by someone who also claims cables, power cords and power conditioners make audible differences, then straight-line your conclusion directly to their opinion of the product.

 

[danstahl]

Just find out if the processor is endorsed by someone who also claims cables, power cords and power conditioners make audible differences, then straight-line your conclusion directly to their opinion of the product.

These opinions are often from highly respected people...eg this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/storm-audio-vs-lyngdorf-vs-trinnov.3235433/page-2

 

[Vacceo]

We should first define what "better" means. Less distortion and noise? Clean and nothing taken out or added up to the source?

In the case of Trinnov and Lyngdorf, the key is the incredible degree and customization on the equalization of the system. In that regard, yes, they are better than Audyssey or Dirac.

 

[Curvature]

I understand how this may be the case for proprietary high-end room-correction such as Trinnov and Lyngdorf, where less expensive processors use more common correction such as Dirac or Audyssey.

I believe you are correct. There is also ease of use and setup, customizability.

However, this doesn't explain why someone prefers the HTP-1 over the latest Onkyo, which both use Dirac.

Likely no performance based reason as long as gain staging is done correctly.

Although Marantz intentionally adds HDAMS which add a audible distortion that some listeners describe as a warmer sound.

The distortion is too low in level to be audible.

 

[Golfx]

I believe you are correct. There is also ease of use and setup, customizability.

Likely no performance based reason as long as gain staging is done correctly.

The distortion is too low in level to be audible.

I’m talking about the Marantz HDAMS which do add additional distortion and a subjective “warmer” sound which many respected reviewers attribute to the lower SINAD than Denon.

 

[Curvature]

I’m talking about the Marantz HDAMS which do add additional distortion and a subjective “warmer” sound which many respected reviewers attribute to the lower SINAD than Denon.

Marantz SR7015 8K AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz SR7015 "8K" 9.2 channel Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It was purchased new and kindly sent to me by a member. The SR7015 costs US $2,300 from Amazon including Prime shipping. Not much to say about the design of the SR7015 as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm fairly sure you don't understand SINAD.

There's nothing to hear, and there are no respectable ears only reviewers of electronics.

 

[Golfx]

Marantz SR7015 8K AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz SR7015 "8K" 9.2 channel Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It was purchased new and kindly sent to me by a member. The SR7015 costs US $2,300 from Amazon including Prime shipping. Not much to say about the design of the SR7015 as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm fairly sure you don't understand SINAD.

There's nothing to hear, and there are no respectable ears only reviewers of electronics.

That was a condescending comment.

If you read Amir’s conclusion paragraph, from the review that you just posted, he refers to modifications which Marantz adds to the same platform as Denon. He points out that it is Marantz that believes these modifications improve their sound. These added modifications result in more distortion and worse performance than comparably priced Denons. One of those prominent modifications is the addition of HDAMS. It was this added modification I was speaking of which helps contribute to an increased amount of distortion, worse performant and lower SINAD.

 

[Curvature]

That was a condescending comment.

If you read Amir’s conclusion paragraph, from the review that you just posted, he refers to modifications which Marantz adds to the same platform as Denon. He points out that it is Marantz that believes these modifications improve their sound. These added modifications result in more distortion and worse performance than comparably priced Denons. One of those prominent modifications is the addition of HDAMS. It was this added modification I was speaking of which helps contribute to an increased amount of distortion, worse performant and lower SINAD.

I was rude.

I hope you recognize that your reply demonstrated what I said: you have no sense for what SINAD means for audibility. Admit that to yourself. The Marantz is poor for several engineering reasons, but unless a user has no sense of gain staging, overdriving it or overloading the inputs, those reasons are unlikely to produce audible defects.

Bottom line is that you should not believe random claims about audible engineering choices unless you have proof. Marantz supplied none, and Amir's work showed across several examples nothing remarkably different outside of a very poor choice of DAC filter.

Like DACs, AVRs differ in terms of certain objective capabilities and functions, and nothing else. They are playback and routing boxes.

 

[jhaider]

However, this doesn't explain why someone prefers the HTP-1 over the latest Onkyo, which both use Dirac.

I suspect most HTP-1 buyers will pony up the additional $500 for Dirac Live Bass Control, which is a substantial improvement over standard Dirac for most people.

Is there something beyond DAC quality and room correction that could make a processor sound better than another?

Yes. To use your above example, HTP-1 has smartly executed loudness compensation. Onkyo may as well; I don't know. Also, some processors may not have Auro upmixing.

 

[alex-z]

1. Better software.

2. Digital outputs, so you can do fancy stuff like outboard active crossovers for your speakers.

Anyone who claims better soundfield, clarity, detail, imaging, has spent too much time with a thesaurus and not enough on educating themselves.

Same goes for SINAD differences. Even something technically incompetent like the Marantz AV7705 is still audibly acceptable unless your room has a vanishingly low noise floor, and your speakers + source are the best thing since sliced bread. I always advocate for buying electronics based on features and price, not raw performance.

 

[dlaloum]

1) If we are talking DAC quality, from mass market on up, most of the mid market and better AVR's/PrePros are mostly indistinguishable from each other in proper objective testing
2) Decoders are the same, they are licenced from Dolby or DTS... so doesn't matter which you go for
3) Mixer's can be different - the tracking between channels on surround can differ, and there are a few dedicated proprietary ones that can sound different - and in some cases excellent. Logic7 was the best on the market in its heyday - Logic16 today is available on Lexicon & JBL Synthesis gear, and should also be good - but Dolby Surround also does this function, and does a very good job... many people simply use DSU even if they own devices with other mixer options such as Logic16.... some debate on which sounds better, and on which sounds better under which circumstances. (some material may sound better with one, other material with the other!)
4) Room/Speaker EQ - there can be substantial difference in this area - but the quality of the result can be just as dependent on the room and the speakers involved... the mainstream (and now getting long in the tooth!) Audyssey software has improved over the last couple couple of years by providing more control through control Apps - where previously that was only possible on the more expensive processors with the "pro" option and the "pro" mic/tuning kit (which used to cost circa $1k alone). Dirac provides excellent results, and extends from mid market Onkyo AVR's up to the high end TOTL JBL Synthesis models.... Arcam, Lyngdorf, and Trinnov all have their own take on this, with some apparently spectacular results claimed for all of them.
This is where I believe most of the audible differences live. But Improvements / Gains over the un-EQ'd configuration differ substantially depending on how good the base installation is, what the flaws are that Room EQ tries to remedy, and how any particular RoomEQ system remedies those particular flaws.
So for any specific setup, you might be hard pressed to determine which of those would provide the best results, without spending massive amounts of time trying them all out back to back.

Today you can definitely get 99% of the performance of a $10k+ processor, in a $1k AVR - it is mostly software - and the software has become mainstream

How much is that last 1% of performance worth to you - will you get value (and is that last 1% real, or a mirage of confirmation bias?)? well that is always the "high end" question!! - and over the years, there have frequently been components in the midrange price brackets, that competed successfully with the high price "high end". They usually sacrifice bling - are understated - and overperform audibly.

 

[Sancus]

Onkyo and HTP-1 have other differences like Dirac Bass Control. They don't have the same functionality.

That said, most people who claim 1 processor sounds better than the other are doing sighted tests with many minutes or even hours spent switching them out. Which invalidates the entire thing.

I would put 0 stock in claims about how a processor "sounds" without measurements and a clearly displayed understanding of their significance, if any.

 

[Vacceo]

1) If we are talking DAC quality, from mass market on up, most of the mid market and better AVR's/PrePros are mostly indistinguishable from each other in proper objective testing
2) Decoders are the same, they are licenced from Dolby or DTS... so doesn't matter which you go for
3) Mixer's can be different - the tracking between channels on surround can differ, and there are a few dedicated proprietary ones that can sound different - and in some cases excellent. Logic7 was the best on the market in its heyday - Logic16 today is available on Lexicon & JBL Synthesis gear, and should also be good - but Dolby Surround also does this function, and does a very good job... many people simply use DSU even if they own devices with other mixer options such as Logic16.... some debate on which sounds better, and on which sounds better under which circumstances. (some material may sound better with one, other material with the other!)
4) Room/Speaker EQ - there can be substantial difference in this area - but the quality of the result can be just as dependent on the room and the speakers involved... the mainstream (and now getting long in the tooth!) Audyssey software has improved over the last couple couple of years by providing more control through control Apps - where previously that was only possible on the more expensive processors with the "pro" option and the "pro" mic/tuning kit (which used to cost circa $1k alone). Dirac provides excellent results, and extends from mid market Onkyo AVR's up to the high end TOTL JBL Synthesis models.... Arcam, Lyngdorf, and Trinnov all have their own take on this, with some apparently spectacular results claimed for all of them.
This is where I believe most of the audible differences live. But Improvements / Gains over the un-EQ'd configuration differ substantially depending on how good the base installation is, what the flaws are that Room EQ tries to remedy, and how any particular RoomEQ system remedies those particular flaws.
So for any specific setup, you might be hard pressed to determine which of those would provide the best results, without spending massive amounts of time trying them all out back to back.

Today you can definitely get 99% of the performance of a $10k+ processor, in a $1k AVR - it is mostly software - and the software has become mainstream

How much is that last 1% of performance worth to you - will you get value (and is that last 1% real, or a mirage of confirmation bias?)? well that is always the "high end" question!! - and over the years, there have frequently been components in the midrange price brackets, that competed successfully with the high price "high end". They usually sacrifice bling - are understated - and overperform audibly.

I think the trend in the very near future is that the hardware itself will be reduced to a tiny box and perhaps, not even that.

Truth is, it's already happening with active speakers (Genelec and Dynaudio). Just as you mention, these devices are moving towards software, so with the inclusion of the hardware on the speakers themselves, the boxes may very well disappear or get reduced to something we'll hide.

 

[Doodski]

I think the trend in the very near future is that the hardware itself will be reduced to a tiny box and perhaps, not even that.

The thermal dissipation limits even with class D will prevent that from occurring.

Truth is, it's already happening with active speakers (Genelec and Dynaudio). Just as you mention, these devices are moving towards software, so with the inclusion of the hardware on the speakers themselves, the boxes may very well disappear or get reduced to something we'll hide.

There's no replacement for displacement with speakers. Volume is everything for bass response and moving air can't be replaced.

 

[Vacceo]

The thermal dissipation limits even with class D will prevent that from occurring.

There's no replacement for displacement with speakers. Volume is everything for bass response and moving air can't be replaced.

The tiny box I meant is the processor/receiver, not the speaker.

If the active route is further developed, those boxes will just become a convenient connection hub as the amps, DACs and so on will be on the speakers themselves.

 

[JSmith]

a processor sound better

Why would you want a product that has a baked in sound and what is "better", on what content?

Aim for a transparent system... if you then want to alter the "sound", do so. You'll find this is much more appropriate when dealing with all different types of audio sources and music.


JSmith

 

[Doodski]

The tiny box I meant is the processor/receiver, not the speaker.

O' sorry I misunderstood.

 

[Vacceo]

O' sorry I misunderstood.

Belive me I know displacement: I'm not trying to get Gothams because I don't have the room for them...