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High Resolution Audio: Does It Matter?

Sal1950

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Oh bless - what is the purpose of our audio systems?
To work. If we're interested in High Fidelity, to deliver what's contained in the source with as little modification as posible.
Without the science, and the engineers using the knowledge we've gained over the last hundred years or so, you'd still be listening to an Edison wind-up phonograph.
What more is left to be said?
I also think that the quality of musical performance trumps everything - even science, and that just felt a little lacking in this thread!
I did wonder about the thread from the perspective of musical performance , but maybe I strayed into the wrong forum.

The performance is something we have no control over, that's up to the musicians.
All that's done here is investigate the most accurate ways to bring that performance into our homes. ;)

In general, we want to hear what we prefer. Enter science.
@j_j Just a quick thank you for all your contributions to ASR. I have to admit I don't understand a large majority of your writings but I try. ;)
We really do value your membership here.
Sal1950
 

j_j

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It’s my understanding that the pre ringing seen in the typical curves presented in for example DAC tests appears when using the step impulse signal ? The signal is designed to test filters and the curve is a telltale for the expert to interpret which kind of filter we have and how well excecuted it is in a given product ?

Somebody might do that, they'd be much better off with an impulse response captured from a long-term allpass sequence, though. Less noise, etc.


But it does not happen at al with properly bandwidth limited signals such as the music you actually play ?

THEORETICALLY there shouldn't be so much, but when you add another filter, you convolve the input with the filter, so the convolution HAS to add length. Even an in-band signal has a longer length when convolved with a filter that filters out of band. Now, the effect may be very small, but it exists. Whenever you convolve a signal with a filter, the signal gets longer. No choice in the matter.

But it’s used in hifi marketing to give us noobs the impression that there is some kind of pre echo of transients going on all the time when using “normal filters” and sell us everything from ... and every other unorthodox filter approach?
This pre ringing impulse and ringing square waves is often used deceptively in marketing against audiophiles with limited understanding of the theory (such as myself ).

There is a ton of BS out there, yes. Most of it hip deep in the pigsty. I won't comment on any one particular product.

I will say that a DAC without a filter has worse time resolution, and not in an easily calculated fashion, than one that has a proper antiimaging filter. Those edges you see are 100% OUT OF BAND and should be properly antiimaged in order to give the most accurate time (and spectrum) results.

Bandwidth limiting and filters are part of digital audio in its practical use, but not necessarily the other way around.
You can demonstrate many of these effects in an analog system to ?

What's "the other way around"
 

Blumlein 88

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I think by other way round he means bandwidth limiting via filters are necessary for digital which isn't broken to function. However not needed in analog. Then the question that you can demonstrate the same effects with filters even in an analog domain.
 

j_j

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I think by other way round he means bandwidth limiting via filters are necessary for digital which isn't broken to function. However not needed in analog. Then the question that you can demonstrate the same effects with filters even in an analog domain.

Well, all analog stuff has built-in bandwidth limiting to start with, especially storage media. It's physics. It's definitely different, and if you go back to evaluating Tube amps, you will see both LF and HF square waves used to examine the ringing due to mostly the output transformer, with things like 'rise time' and "sag" commonly measured.

It's different, but it's still an problem.
 

Blumlein 88

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Well, all analog stuff has built-in bandwidth limiting to start with, especially storage media. It's physics. It's definitely different, and if you go back to evaluating Tube amps, you will see both LF and HF square waves used to examine the ringing due to mostly the output transformer, with things like 'rise time' and "sag" commonly measured.

It's different, but it's still an problem.
Yes, I understand that, but I think that was the thinking of Mnyb. For instance quite a large number of analog circuits in audio have 200,000 khz flat bandwidth or DC on the low end. To cover the audible range you won't have any effects from the built in bandlimiting. Of course not true of xfmr connected tube amps. I also think Mnyb was asking if you add similar filters to these relatively wideband analog devices even in an analog signal you get the same effects. We need him to clear it up, but I think I've understood what he had in mind.
 

j_j

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Yes, I understand that, but I think that was the thinking of Mnyb. For instance quite a large number of analog circuits in audio have 200,000 khz flat bandwidth or DC on the low end. To cover the audible range you won't have any effects from the built in bandlimiting. Of course not true of xfmr connected tube amps. I also think Mnyb was asking if you add similar filters to these relatively wideband analog devices even in an analog signal you get the same effects. We need him to clear it up, but I think I've understood what he had in mind.

The problem is that all of these effects ultimately go analog. So the question is moot. Certainly if I add a really gross filter to an analog system, it will do weirdness, but that's not what digital systems normally add.
 

DavidMcRoy

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Not to me. Beyond say, 24-bit/48kHz PCM I personally don't care about any differences I might think I’m hearing. Having said that, I am bothered by too many daisy chained AD>DA conversions, so there‘s that. How high does the rez need to be before that catches up with you?
 
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Mnyb

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Thanks especially J_J andf Blumlien i ment just that filters and bandwidth limiting are analog too .

Sometimes i think many in audio hobby thinks this is some "evil" that arrived with digital :) just the same as the fallacy that analog audio has unlimited resolution.

The discussion is to technical for my limited skills , so I have no further questions at the moment .

On the topic of hirez.

For myself i did the experiments of taking a what i considered good hirez recordings , modern and done with digital equipment so that there could be actual hirez content in there ( no some old analog tape from 1973, it wont do ).

In did the conversion to 16/44.1 myself on my computer .

And made some random blindtest myself and i could not hear any difference.

Many seems to just compare the CD with some streaming service or SACD or the CD layer of hirez disc , these are rarely mastered the same so you cant compare.

Off topic.

Actually the actual sound quality and mastering of the work always trumps the chosen media, the good version will be more enjoyable in mp3 than a fudged master in glorious DSD of the highest order.
I be happy when i find a recording that actually touch the limits of CD :) most records are not that good and are rarely limited by the media imho .
So this obsessing over formats is a bit meh ?
 

j_j

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Actually the actual sound quality and mastering of the work always trumps the chosen media, the good version will be more enjoyable in mp3 than a fudged master in glorious DSD of the highest order.
I be happy when i find a recording that actually touch the limits of CD :) most records are not that good and are rarely limited by the media imho .
So this obsessing over formats is a bit meh ?
(bold added by me)

The media is not the biggest problem at the minute. Insane levels of level compression are rampant, and horrible. Further,they are often applied to sources that should never ever have been compressed at all.

Some of the oldest recordings I have are also some of the best performances, and some of the newer, multimiked versions of classical orchestra are dead soundwise (too much interference among mikes) as well as performance-wise (If Beethoven wanted "tick tock" timing, I doubt he would have put in instructions to the contrary in the score.

Basically, Tennstadt over Mehta any day!
 

JeremyFife

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Just to echo thanks to the expert posters here.

I understand all the words individually :) ... may take me a bit of time to grasp the actual sentences though. Interesting.

It does give me the sense that there are still improvements to be made to hifi, which will trickle down to my level eventually. We're not done.
Oh, and 16/44 is fine
 

Frank Dernie

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Oh bless - what is the purpose of our audio systems? I assume we are all music lovers who want to enjoy and appreciate the talents of our preferred musicians.

Or maybe it really is just about the science . Pretty sure the performers on the recordings didn’t have that in mind :(
I bought a stereo as a music lover in 1968.
As and engineer I found the technical aspects interesting.
As and amateur recordist I had to learn a bit about the technical side, particularly alignment and levels when it was still analogue tape.

Once the technically hard of understanding took over the enthusiast's magazines - probably Jean Hiraga influenced - the technical stuff, whilst properly handled by manufacturers thankfully, started to be full of bollox, for want of a better word, in much of the hifi press. Then cost became equated with SQ in review comparisons and there were plenty of businesses happy to make super expensive kit often incorporating a fashionable "technical" feature.

It has been largely horrifying to watch since then.

It is certainly possible to buy a lot of excellent equipment to reproduce one's recordings. Most electronics has been audibly transparent (ie better than human ears) for decades, so no real need to break the bank for sound quality - more styling, potential reliability and function set.

Speakers and particularly the layout of users listening rooms are still the biggest shortcomings.

High res audio is largely a marketing excercise designed to extract money from the fans. It is demonstrably unnecessary for replay.

The ultimate limiting factor has always been the sound quality of the recording itself, and still is.
 

Frank Dernie

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Some of the oldest recordings I have are also some of the best performances, and some of the newer, multimiked versions of classical orchestra are dead soundwise (too much interference among mikes) as well as performance-wise (If Beethoven wanted "tick tock" timing, I doubt he would have put in instructions to the contrary in the score.

Basically, Tennstadt over Mehta any day!
Precisly this, and this is why I have stuck with stereo rather than multi channel - my favourite recordings are stereo so all the benefits of spatial accuracy of multi channel don't apply to them. As long as I personally am satisfied by instrumental timbre and a dynamic range as realistic as I can get I have gone as far down the road to high fidelity as is available to me.
 

Frank Dernie

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Hi - On reflection, absolutely nothing. A great performance is a great performance , which I will happily listen to on my iPhone , in my car, on my Sonos or on a Bluetooth speaker.

Thanks for clearing my mind. Have a great weekend all.
This is actually exactly my point of view.
I'd rather listen to a performance I love on basic sound system than one I don't on the best hifi made, the kit is a means to an end but the recording is always the key - and the limitation.
 

j_j

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Precisly this, and this is why I have stuck with stereo rather than multi channel - my favourite recordings are stereo so all the benefits of spatial accuracy of multi channel don't apply to them. As long as I personally am satisfied by instrumental timbre and a dynamic range as realistic as I can get I have gone as far down the road to high fidelity as is available to me.

Well, the results from Steinburg and Snow in the1930's do show that 3 channels, all in front, are what you want.

But that would require proper 3 channel recordings, which haven't happened since Fantasia.
 

Frank Dernie

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Well, the results from Steinburg and Snow in the1930's do show that 3 channels, all in front, are what you want.

But that would require proper 3 channel recordings, which haven't happened since Fantasia.
Quite so, it really doesn't matter what is best or better in theory, in practice my 60 years worth recordings are mostly stereo with quite a bit of early mono so that is what I need a hifi to play.
 

anmpr1

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High res audio is largely a marketing excercise designed to extract money from the fans. It is demonstrably unnecessary for replay.
In the days of analog consumers had two choices. Monophonic, and stereo records (not counting outliers such as open reel or the later cassettes, but those were either mono or stereo). Now, in addition to hi-rez, record companies offer remixes. The hi-rez angle is, I agree, simple marketing. But one can find added value in remixes, albeit not in the usual sense of offering anything 'better' than the original.

To cite an example, Brian Wilson mixed many of his multi-track recordings to mono. From a marketing and sales angle, it was not the best decision. To counter, Capitol pressed them using an electronic process they called Duophonic (which they then sold for one dollar more). It wasn't just the Beach Boys, but a lot of the old monophonic Capitol catalog (such as Frank Sinatra) could be purchased in Duophonic. How did it sound? In those days, if you didn't like the effect, you could switch your receiver to mono and blend the channels (they all came with that function, often missing in today's gear). It was not ideal, but you at least had the option to do it. Or just save a dollar and buy the mono record.

The worst offenders were probably 'budget' classical labels. For instance, Vox screwed up many wonderful monophonic recordings in an attempt to opportunistically market stereo. In that respect, i.e., the money grubbing angle, it was the same then as you see it now, with hi-rez. The difference being that Duophonic and the other 'reprocessed for stereo' records actually gave you something that sounded different.

The added value part of what you can buy today is more important than whatever hi-rez does or doesn't offer. Capitol released all the group's early mono records in true stereo (those recorded from late 1964 through 1967--coinciding with the time Brian started to go south, mentally, and the group subsequently assuming joint production). The record company used the original four track open reel session tapes that had been archived in a closet somewhere, for some or another reason. It is now possible to actually hear Brian's intricate studio work (provided by top tier LA session musicians). So from that perspective there is a definite added value to the new product. It is an open question whether these later remixes are aesthetically 'better' than the original mono. But that is a different question. I'd say that in general the answer is no, however YMMV.

Occasionally I receive 'junk' email from a hi-rez outfit offering an opportunity to download many fifties and sixties mono recordings, now remastered in 192/24. The only thing required is more money and additional bandwidth. I ask myself, will a 192/24 mono remaster of Surfin' sound better than the original do-nut hole Candix 45 rpm? Does the remaster utilize all those extra digits in an important way? To tell you the truth, I'm not even sure the original was recorded in stereo, but if it was, it likely had vocals on one channel, and instruments on the other. My money is on the original 45, for aural authenticity.

Very funny anecdote from Carl Wilson, that keeps 'old catalog' hi-rez remastering in perspective: We didn't know anything about the sounds or how a record was made. We just lucked out. My dad knew a publisher and we went to a studio and we made a record. And the way it sounded was the way it sounded.

All that said, the fidelity of Brian's mid '60s multitrack session tapes demonstrates remarkable high fidelity (compare the different 'takes' made during the Pet Sounds rehearsals). You hear the original 'studio ambiance' (reverb etc) that is lost within his final monophonic mixdown.

Since we like pictures, below is Wilson in his better days, with a distinctly non hi-rez tape machine, and associated amplifier. Proving that making high quality recordings doesn't require super high tech over the top gear with hundreds of sliders, effects plug-ins, massive CPU power, and zero distortion electronics. You just have to know what you are doing.

wilson.jpg
 

BDWoody

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Proving that making high quality recordings doesn't require super high tech over the top gear with hundreds of sliders, effects plug-ins, massive CPU power, and zero distortion electronics. You just have to know what you are doing.

On a related but fairly off-topic note, I saw this video a while back and couldn't figure out a place to post it. It's interesting to see what was involved 'back in the day.'

 

danadam

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On a related but fairly off-topic note, I saw this video a while back
2 weeks ago maybe? :)
 

BDWoody

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2 weeks ago maybe? :)

Ha! Maybe it has been popping up in news feeds lately. I remember specifically thinking I should post that sometime, but someone got there first!
That's ok...I think it's pretty cool.
 
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