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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

charleski

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I wouldn't say so, no. I would never buy based purely on measurements. For me it is a threshold thing, as I don't want my gear contributing in ways I don't prefer it to. I go for literal high fidelity (not to be confused with highest available, because beyond some point it won't matter anymore), and if I am going to be able to hear my amp, DAC, cables, or any other solidstate part of my systems altering the sound, I don't want it.



No, beyond some point it just doesn't matter in terms of audibility.
I think the only aspect worthy of debate here is where that threshold actually lies. This is an area is which different types of measurements do seem to give conflicting results. For instance, @MattHooper recently reported a significant DB/ABX result from comparing preamps with SINADs of ~50dB and 120dB. But many struggle to detect artificially generated distortion in blind tests below around -35dB, so it may be possible that the perceptual impact of the behaviour of the circuits involved isn't being captured by simple distortion generation routines.

But we can be pretty certain the SA-10's SINAD of 103dB is well below the threshold.
 

Sal1950

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I think the only aspect worthy of debate here is where that threshold actually lies.
IMHO, if you wanted to place a single number on it I would think 90 db would be a good place to say anything below that should just be considered a broken POS. LOL
Seeing as above that compromises about the top 3/4 of DACS tested, the debate is just a big waste of time. ;)
 

testp

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New member, first post, so hello!
welcome.. Sal1950 is spot on, no one gets flamed here if we keep an open mind.
I also wanted to add, that we all have preference for sound, and our preference might not match with reference (today), and that's ok.
maybe with more time, we start to appreciate reference as preference, but if not thats ok too.

i wish i could have used less preference/reference in this message but oh well..
 

SlothRock

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May I ask, how certain are you that the good sound you are getting from your tube amp, is because of euphonic added distortions?
I mean is it impossible that your tube amp is actually well-made, with very low distortion and the extra textures you hear are due to the amp's excellent resolution!
Maybe, your SS amp, despite good advertised results has developed a fault, or simply is not to your tube amps performance.
Is it an assumption on your part, or do you know for fact?
It’s an assumption. I’m basing it off the fact that my SS amp has been independently measured and has great results. Maybe not as good as A90 but certainly beyond the threshold of human hearing. Here is my SS amp/measurements:


I havent seen my tube amp measured but just knowing the property of tube amps they typically will have harmonic distortion since that’s part of what draws most folks to them. The sound is markedly different between my SS and tube - they both sound great but in different ways
 

PGAMiami

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It’s just as naive to believe that a few measurements capture all the relevant factors for evaluating a component as it is to think measurements are irrelevant and a power cable can subjectively ”add an octave of bass”. I would personally be hard pressed to buy for myself a component that measures poorly or spend much on tweaks, but I also believe great specs are merely the starting point. Over time we’ve learned that what we thought were all the relevant measurements were in fact lacking. We also have to understand that our hobby is someone else’s business, and marketing is a factor, so read skeptically, understanding the interest of the customer and the salesperson are often misaligned. But that does not mean you should tune out an entire review or brochure because you disagree with some parts.
 

Ken Tajalli

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It’s an assumption. I’m basing it off the fact that my SS amp has been independently measured and has great results. Maybe not as good as A90 but certainly beyond the threshold of human hearing. Here is my SS amp/measurements:


I havent seen my tube amp measured but just knowing the property of tube amps they typically will have harmonic distortion since that’s part of what draws most folks to them. The sound is markedly different between my SS and tube - they both sound great but in different ways
Thank you.
At the risk of deviating too much from thread's subject matter, what headphones are you using with them?
 

misterdog

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^ absolutely.
After all not so many years ago many would claim that measuring noise outside the threshold of human hearing was pointless.
Yet here we are now.

index.php


Though some will still argue that this can have no audible effect.
 

Robbo99999

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Hi everyone!

New member, first post, so hello!

I've been debating with myself whether join this forum or not, but in the end I couldn't resist, even though I'm sure I'm going to get flamed! ;) Just to be clear, I haven't come here to troll or for the sake of having an argument, but to offer a (hopefully informed) alternative to the majority opinion, and also to learn.

So, full disclosure. I am 58 and a musician by profession - classically trained, went to Trinity College of Music in London and have worked mostly in orchestras and shows, playing wind instruments. I have also had, unusually for a musician, a lifelong interest in Hi-Fi. My first experience of the wonders of reproduced music, other than the kitchen radio, was my Dad's record player. And I mean record player, not turntable. It had its own built in speaker. I remember listening to Tchaikovsky 1812 and other works on the old Decca Classics label at the age of 6 or 7. My Dad let me use the record player. I was very careful!
Fast forward to the 90's and I had the means to buy a decent Hi-Fi, which, after many upgrades, culminated substantially in the system which I still have today. I won't bore you with the whole inventory, but the CD reply side has been, Marantz CD12/DA12, Mark Levinson 38, ATC SCM100A SL. Until recently that is, when my CD12 finally gave up the ghost after 30+ years. (It still works, but you have to manually help it read/spin the disc). So, what to replace an iconic and state of the art/reference balanced (to go with my fully balanced system) CD player with? Yes, you guessed; the SA-10.

This is where I'm going to have to start to choose my words carefully, but as I said, I'm curious to learn rather that simply argue and alternative viewpoint. It seems that the majority here think that measurements are more important than anything else, is that correct? So if a piece of equipment measures better than another then it must sound better, and if it doesn't, then either you are deceiving yourself (due to cost and appearance for example) or your opinion of which sounds better must be wrong?

Personally I have to confess that I don't fully understand all of the measurements in amirs's review, or what the sonic implication of any given measurement is. I've spent my whole life and career honing and trusting my listening skills. The only thing that matters to me is how something sounds, and to my (if I say so myself, experienced) ears, the SA-10 sounds phenomenal. As to whether it justifies it's asking price, well that would have to be up to the purchaser. I bought mine at a substantial discount before the price point is where it is now. Would I pay the current asking price? No, but only because I couldn't justify it. When you look at the reviews of the SA-10 and compare it to it's competition it looks rather competitive. But yes, it's overpriced - rather like a Rolls Royce is.

So, a few additional questions; Has anyone here (apart perhaps from the one person who said he had an SA-10) done any listening comparisons to the the much cheaper DAC's which measure better? And if not, how can you say that they sound as good or better? Second, does anyone think (as I do) that reproduction from different formats/sources (DAT, CD, USB etc) sound different, despite the fact that they are all digital?
Hi, welcome to ASR, it's ok to have a different viewpoint, but you could save yourself time & money by using what you learn here on ASR to buy quality tried & tested gear that doesn't have to cost a fortune. No point in buying a fancy CD Player for over £3000 like you have with the SA-10. You'd get more reliable results simply ripping your CD's to a PC using a $10 USB CD Player, and then checking that the ripped files are bit-perfect using AccuriteRIP/PerfectTunes which will check each or your ripped tracks to make sure they are identical to a perfect example - then when you playback that ripped track from your PC (or other device) then you know the source will be perfect in terms of being error free. As for choosing DACS, I'm not onboard with you on that - I think if they measure well here on ASR then there's nothing more to think about them & would be indistinguishable sonically.
 

Ken Tajalli

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Hi, welcome to ASR, it's ok to have a different viewpoint,. . .
Seriously? on ASR? why nobody told me ;).
but you could save yourself time & money by using what you learn here on ASR to buy quality tried & tested gear that doesn't have to cost a fortune. No point in buying a fancy CD Player for over £3000 like you have with the SA-10. You'd get more reliable results simply ripping your CD's to a PC using a $10 USB CD Player, and then checking that the ripped files are bit-perfect using AccuriteRIP/PerfectTunes which will check each or your ripped tracks to make sure they are identical to a perfect example - then when you playback that ripped track from your PC (or other device) then you know the source will be perfect in terms of being error free.
How can anyone argue with that, absolutely!
As for choosing DACS, I'm not onboard with you on that - I think if they measure well here on ASR then there's nothing more to think about them & would be indistinguishable sonically.
E. . . . rm!
Good lab tests (getting back to the subject matter) is an indication to show if the designer and/or manufacturer screwed up anywhere, to reveal obvious flaws with a unit.
Buying equipment purely on lab results is no different to buying a Tube amp for that warm lovely sound -
what if it doesn't? to my ears! would I then convince myself that my hearing is flawed because this thing obviously has a high SINAD? so it must be me , same as " but it sounds crap, but it is so warm, I must love it".
Lab test results are Vital to reveal discoverable F-ups in a device - once the device passes lab tests, then auditioning starts to make sure.
Use science first, then finally your ears!
 

RichB

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^ absolutely.
After all not so many years ago many would claim that measuring noise outside the threshold of human hearing was pointless.
Yet here we are now.

index.php


Though some will still argue that this can have no audible effect.

Measurements are taken with relatively simple signals to allow analysis.

IMO, ASR should continue to present the data and let the consumer decide.

- Rich
 

Robbo99999

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Seriously? on ASR? why nobody told me ;).

How can anyone argue with that, absolutely!

E. . . . rm!
Good lab tests (getting back to the subject matter) is an indication to show if the designer and/or manufacturer screwed up anywhere, to reveal obvious flaws with a unit.
Buying equipment purely on lab results is no different to buying a Tube amp for that warm lovely sound -
what if it doesn't? to my ears! would I then convince myself that my hearing is flawed because this thing obviously has a high SINAD? so it must be me , same as " but it sounds crap, but it is so warm, I must love it".
Lab test results are Vital to reveal discoverable F-ups in a device - once the device passes lab tests, then auditioning starts to make sure.
Use science first, then finally your ears!
Yeah, sure it's ok to have a different viewpoint, people will try to change your mind by putting in a couterargument, but of course people don't have to change their mind even when being shown something that is obviously true......just many people will challenge that person and partly so that there isn't a proliferation of nonsense here on ASR. People have put the case a million times why DACS are going to "sound the same" if they measure well here on ASR, so I won't bother fleshing out those points.
 

PGAMiami

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See still no evidence.
www.addictedtoaudio.com.au/blogs/how-to/how-to-pick-the-best-filter-setting-for-your-dac

Above is a link that explains how different filters measure and sound, on an ASR fav DAC. While some may claim these differences are inaudible, in my experience with DACs that I’ve owned that allow one to select various filters, one could easily hear differences in real time a-b comparisons. Many highly respected engineers such as Dr Johnson, E Meitner will tell you they measure and listen. These are folks that have also made huge contributions not just advancing consumer products, but also in the pro recording arena designing and manufacturing some of the best sounding PCM and DSD A to D and D to A equipment, used by many of the best studios to produce some of the best recordings ever.
 

Ken Tajalli

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I have ZMF Verite closed and Atrium headphones
♫ ♫ If I were a rich man, yabee dabee dabee ...... ♫
Dear me, drug dealer or corporate boss? :)
No, my hunch was not correct, I thought you have something with a low impedance, and the tube amp's high output impedance (usually) was causing an effect. I was wrong.
What is your tube amp? is it a standard tube amp or an OTL type ...?
 

Sal1950

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Lab test results are Vital to reveal discoverable F-ups in a device - once the device passes lab tests, then auditioning starts to make sure.
Use science first, then finally your ears!
Remember your senses are the most easily fooled and distorted by factors outside of the reality of their sound.
Your ears are the last thing you should count on to deliver accurate data to your brain.
The electronics of audio has been a solved problem for a number of decades now. If the lab doesn't find any "F-ups" in a device it will sound the same as the next when used properly.
Don't know why you would bring tube gear into the discussion? In 99 % of the cases, the lab will show that the amp will alter the sound of the source under various conditions.
 

Ken Tajalli

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Remember your senses are the most easily fooled and distorted by factors outside of the reality of their sound.
Your ears are the last thing you should count on to deliver accurate data to your brain.
The electronics of audio has been a solved problem for a number of decades now. If the lab doesn't find any "F-ups" in a device it will sound the same as the next when used properly.
Don't know why you would bring tube gear into the discussion? In 99 % of the cases, the lab will show that the amp will alter the sound of the source under various conditions.
Don't know what to say to that!!
Are you suggesting that I listen to music, while checking charts from a lab test?
Or should I watch a movie with my taste buds?
All the lab tests , charts and SINAD results on ASR don't amount to a hill of beans, if my ears disagree.
You know what they say about "proof of the pudding . . ."
I was around in the 70's, and I remember the same empty claims then "with modern transistor audio equipments all problems are solved, there is nothing we don't know"
And this is the topic of this thread, after all.
Obviously you belong to the camp ".. it is everything" , and I from the camp ".... it is a necessary first step" .
We agree to disagree.
 

Sal1950

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Obviously you belong to the camp ".. it is everything" , and I from the camp ".... it is a necessary first step" .
We agree to disagree.
Most here believed as you do at one time.
Till we took the time to test our notions using the science of bias controlled blind listening tests.
If you do the same I'm totally confident you will learn that sighted bias is the culprit.
There is no magic, modern science CAN measure everything you can hear, and more.
That's what we would most like you learn here.

But I have to say, I once watched David Copperfield make a 747 jet completely disappear off a runway.
He really did it, I seen it with my own 2 eyes!
 

Ken Tajalli

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Most here believed as you do at one time.
Are you sure? do you have for chart for that?
But I have to say, I once watched David Copperfield make a 747 jet completely disappear off a runway.
He really did it, I seen it with my own 2 eyes!
Wasn't it fun though? a whole 747! he became a millionaire if I remember, men looked up to him, women desired him.
While scientists with in their white lab coats, pedal their bicycles home.
Come off it please, Hifi, going to concerts, listening to music is to have fun and enjoyment.
You have your scientific test results for the sake of test results, I use science as a means to an end !
My enjoyment of virtual music, using my ears (I know I shouldn't), while I am half drunk.
For me, ASR is a valuable tool to tell me for free, what audio equipment to avoid.
 
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