ASR burning the wrong witches?

[DWI]

An audiophile seeks to reproduce the sound of a live musical performance

that line is what makes me not an audiophile. Live performances, for the music I listen to, would be a very unpleasant experience to reproduce in my listening room.

So if I listen to a lot of classical chamber music, which hifi can do very well, and you listen to a lot go heavy metal, that I presume you wouldn't want too real in your living room, does that make me an audiophile mainly because of the music I prefer to listen to?

 

[anmpr1]

I don't know Peter from Paul so the trustworthiness of the author wasn't a factor in my assessment.

There was actually a time when Peter had good things to say about Paul. But you'd have to go back a long time for that, and those days are long gone for sure.

[As an aside, like Mary, both were quite contrary.]

Disclaimer: I owned Paul's little phono stage (along with his line stage, and MC pre-preamp). All similar in build quality to what you'd find in a Dynaco kit, and just as cheap (to be fair, Paul's MC head amplifier appeared to be built to a higher standard, but it's been a long time and my memory might not be accurate). The good news is they all did what Paul and Stan claimed they'd do, unlike some of Paul's current and much more expensive/questionable stuff.

 

[Multicore]

There was actually a time when Peter had good things to say about Paul.

Nice one! The PS Paul didn't cross my mind when I wrote my previous post. So this was a cute surprise.

The sound of the PS II is somewhat hard and edgy, but no more so than a lot of solid-state preamps that are claimed to be SOTA and cost incompatibly more.

That's some audiophillia right there. An engineer knows how to compare dollar costs in linear terms or dB.

 

[IPunchCholla]

So if I listen to a lot of classical chamber music, which hifi can do very well, and you listen to a lot go heavy metal, that I presume you wouldn't want too real in your living room, does that make me an audiophile mainly because of the music I prefer to listen to?

I guess it also depends where at the live event you prefer to listen. In band, way back when, I played trumpet. I hated having to sit behind the damn flutes. Back of venue even at some of the noise-core events I have been to wouldn't be totally unpleasant in my house.

 

[Zensō]

So if I listen to a lot of classical chamber music, which hifi can do very well, and you listen to a lot go heavy metal, that I presume you wouldn't want too real in your living room, does that make me an audiophile mainly because of the music I prefer to listen to?

I don’t think so, not at least in regards to ASR. My impression is that around here the term “audiophile” has come to refer to those who deny the existence of confirmation/expectation bias and trust their golden ears over anything and everything. Musical genres don’t factor in at all.

 

[DWI]

I don’t think so, not at least in regards to ASR. My impression is that around here the term “audiophile” has come to refer to those who deny the existence of confirmation/expectation bias and trust their golden ears over anything and everything. Musical genres don’t factor in at all.

So what about people (like me) who chose products purely by listening to them, without looking at measurements?

There can't be confirmation bias if you haven't yet bought the product. In retrospect, measurements wouldn't have helped because the two products I listened to extensively both measured extremely well, but presented very differently. Plus I haven't got golden ears because no one my age has and I've had them measured by an ENT surgeon.

The simple answer is that to ASR an audiophile is someone ho doesn't rely purely on the measured performance carried out by ASR.

 

[Zensō]

So what about people (like me) who chose products purely by listening to them, without looking at measurements?

There can't be confirmation bias if you haven't yet bought the product. In retrospect, measurements wouldn't have helped because the two products I listened to extensively both measured extremely well, but presented very differently. Plus I haven't got golden ears because no one my age has and I've had them measured by an ENT surgeon.

Expectation bias is always present, it’s a part of being human. How it looks, what it costs, how much wine you drank before you listened, and on and on, all affect our perception. There’s no escaping bias, even when we’re fully aware of it. At least that’s what the science tells us.

 

[krabapple]

So what about people (like me) who chose products purely by listening to them, without looking at measurements?

There can't be confirmation bias if you haven't yet bought the product. In retrospect, measurements wouldn't have helped because the two products I listened to extensively both measured extremely well, but presented very differently. Plus I haven't got golden ears because no one my age has and I've had them measured by an ENT surgeon.

Confirmation bias isn't the only kind of bias. Nor does confirmation bias (and there are several kinds) require you to have already bought the product.

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The simple answer is that to ASR an audiophile is someone ho doesn't rely purely on the measured performance carried out by ASR.

Nope.

 

[Multicore]

My impression is that around here the term “audiophile” has come to refer to those who deny the existence of confirmation/expectation bias and trust their golden ears over anything and everything.

I guess I use the word a little differently. What's the difference between an audiophile and, say, a music lover, or a record collector, a musician, or a teacher? With the word audiophile (I propose) the love is of the audio, i.e. the equipment. I think you can be very realistic about biases and learn how to understand sophisticated technical reports of measurements (such as at ASR) and use them to inform consumer decisions while being an audiophile, i.e. being more interested in the equipment you buy than what you play through it.

And my claim previously that audiophillia per se is borderline perverse is perhaps valid if I think the same about someone who collects fine musical instruments but can't play them very well or someone who collects high performance motor cycles but never rides them fast.

 

[Sal1950]

Live performances, for the music I listen to, would be a very unpleasant experience to reproduce in my listening room.

Why is that? Haven't you ever attended a live concert of the music you like?
Was it a "very unpleasant experience"?

Isn't it simply a matter of playing at an comfortable volume level, no matter the genre of music?

I'm guessing the general public have never heard of cable risers or 10K power cords.

You'd be surprised at the places the audiophile community is ridiculed for it's insanity.

I don't know Peter from Paul so the trustworthiness of the author wasn't a factor in my assessment.

Peter passed away a few years back at the ripe ole age of 93. He produced a magazine called The Audio Critic and was one of the few objectively level headed audio editors from back in the day. Just about everything he's ever written is still archived here,

The Audio Critic

www.biline.ca

A good quick read of his thoughts and positions can be highlighted here,

Web 'Zine Page 1

www.biline.ca

and here,
The 10 Biggest Lies In Audio

Disclaimer: I owned Paul's little phono stage (along with his line stage, and MC pre-preamp).

As did I, a great sounding little phono stage in it's day.
Too bad Paul has fallen on the greed train of high end audio

So what about people (like me) who chose products purely by listening to them, without looking at measurements?

So you don't care how badly any product may be distorting or otherwise hurting the waveform of your musical source, just as long as it "sounds good" to you, that is your only concern? That's a shame and I feel badly that you have no interest in the actual sound of your system.

There’s no escaping bias, even when we’re fully aware of it. At least that’s what the science tells us.

And is proven by the inescapable results of any posted evidence.

 

[DWI]

So you don't care how badly any product may be distorting or otherwise hurting the waveform of your musical source, just as long as it "sounds good" to you, that is your only concern? That's a shame and I feel badly that you have no interest in the actual sound of your system.

I do, that's why I built an acoustically treated music room, new walls and ceiling, measured it at various stages and put in a pair of speakers that suit my listening tastes. They are from a company known for their excellence and in retrospect read that they measure well and are tuned for a more even response with farfield listening in a typical moderately active room. That's exactly how my room is designed.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Why is that? Haven't you ever attended a live concert of the music you like?
Was it a "very unpleasant experience"?

Isn't it simply a matter of playing at an comfortable volume level, no matter the genre of music?


You'd be surprised at the places the audiophile community is ridiculed for it's insanity.

Peter passed away a few years back at the ripe ole age of 93. He produced a magazine called The Audio Critic and was one of the few objectively level headed audio editors from back in the day. Just about everything he's ever written is still archived here,

The Audio Critic

www.biline.ca

A good quick read of his thoughts and positions can be highlighted here,

Web 'Zine Page 1

www.biline.ca

and here,
The 10 Biggest Lies In Audio

As did I, a great sounding little phono stage in it's day.
Too bad Paul has fallen on the greed train of high end audio

So you don't care how badly any product may be distorting or otherwise hurting the waveform of your musical source, just as long as it "sounds good" to you, that is your only concern? That's a shame and I feel badly that you have no interest in the actual sound of your system.

And is proven by the inescapable results of any posted evidence.

The live performances are usually smaller venue and acoustics are an issue. Besides volume issues, their soundstage is very poor by comparison. Distortion is also quite high compared to the recording masking a lot of detail. Its not that it doesn't sound good, or it isn't fun, its just if I was critically listening, the live performance is usually fairly flawed compared to the recording produced in studio. Now if I was monitoring from the soundboard, that would likely be very different.

A fun example of this, if you have access to streaming, is to watch Radiohead's King of Limbs - Live from the Basement and compare to those songs on the released albums, and to live performances like Coachella. All of them sound good to me, (though I doubt any of them sound like being "there"), but for my listening room, the version released on the album is the one I would prefer to listen to if just listening is my goal.

And yes, some is just volume. My ears are still ringing from seeing The Cure in 1988. And turning the sound down on most live recordings of music I listen to makes them sound very much not as good to me. The exception being all the singer/songwriter stuff I listen to. Low being an exception to that exception.

 

[DWI]

Confirmation bias isn't the only kind of bias. Nor does confirmation bias (and there are several kinds) require you to have already bought the product.

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do I have to study psychology as well to buy a pair of speakers?
I've rejected more than I've liked because I know what brings a smile to my face and what gives me a headache.
Given my wife was equally involved, and has never read a word about audio, what bias could she be swayed by?

 

[Zensō]

Given my wife was equally involved, and has never read a word about audio, what bias could she be swayed by?

Looks, price, your reactions (the most likely), the salesman’s pitch, and a long list of other, more subtle cues.

No offense intended, but it seems you don’t have a clear understanding of the effect bias has on what we hear. This might be helpful if you’re interested:

What We Hear

FIRST SOME UPDATES: This is a promising sign. I’ve managed to publish another article in less than a week and it’s a big one! Since last wee...

nwavguy.blogspot.com

In any case, I would expect you to hear differences between speakers. Electronics are a different matter though.

 

[DWI]

The live performances are usually smaller venue and acoustics are an issue. Besides volume issues, their soundstage is very poor by comparison. Distortion is also quite high compared to the recording masking a lot of detail. Its not that it doesn't sound good, or it isn't fun, its just if I was critically listening, the live performance is usually fairly flawed compared to the recording produced in studio. Now if I was monitoring from the soundboard, that would likely be very different.

A fun example of this, if you have access to streaming, is to watch Radiohead's King of Limbs - Live from the Basement and compare to those songs on the released albums, and to live performances like Coachella. All of them sound good to me, (though I doubt any of them sound like being "there"), but for my listening room, the version released on the album is the one I would prefer to listen to if just listening is my goal.

And yes, some is just volume. My ears are still ringing from seeing The Cure in 1988. And turning the sound down on most live recordings of music I listen to makes them sound very much not as good to me. The exception being all the singer/songwriter stuff I listen to. Low being an exception to that exception.

I've only been to one Radiohead gig, in a 20,000 seat indoor venue in 2012. My son has seen them 5 or 6 times, which is quite something given how few gigs they do. The gig was amazing, but completely different to their recorded sound which I hugely enjoy.

This may not look like much of a venue, its the loft of an old school that was originally a warehouse, but it is the venue for a small music festival organised by a world famous young pianist, winner of many prizes including the Honens International Piano Competition. On this evening he played the Diabelli Variations, I actually preferred the sound in this room to his much admired studio recording. You wouldn't do a live recording in this space, it's not what people expect, the sound is too lively, but I wouldn't have missed it for the world. (The small number of seats was because it was still under Covid restrictions.)

 

[Sal1950]

So what about people (like me) who chose products purely by listening to them, without looking at measurements?

I built an acoustically treated music room, new walls and ceiling, measured it at various stages and put in a pair of speakers that suit my listening tastes. They are from a company known for their excellence and in retrospect read that they measure well and are tuned for a more even response with farfield listening in a typical moderately active room.

So you have a very expertly measured and treated listening room, that's awesome.
Now maybe you can explain to me how that excellent room could improve on the possibly very badly performing gear before it since you have no interest on how it objectively measures and performed.
Ever heard the old adage about how you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear?

 

[DWI]

As did I, a great sounding little phono stage in it's day.
Too bad Paul has fallen on the greed train of high end audio

I had the excellent little GDPR phono stage, or whatever it was called.

I tend to disagree with your second point in that PS Audio seems to have slipped down between the more extreme high-end and the top end of just about affordable hifi. I think some of it is underpriced, like the BHK amplifiers. Then you have the Stellar stuff that I think is too expensive for ICE based amps.

 

[DWI]

So you have a very expertly measured and treated listening room, that's awesome.
Now maybe you can explain to me how that excellent room could improve on the possibly very badly performing gear before it since you have no interest on how it objectively measures and performed.
Ever heard the old adage about how you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear?

The gear never was a sow's ear, was always a silk purse. I love the sound and it also happens to measure well. There are certain speaker brands that are known to consistently measure well. The pair I bought had been in production for 5 years, I'd heard then several times over those 5 years. The electronics are a single box with Class D power, I've used it with several different pairs of speakers, from Quad Electrostatics to difficult to drive Focal and it just seems to do its job without adding anything.

 

[Sal1950]

The gear never was a sow's ear, was always a silk purse. I love the sound and it also happens to measure well. There are certain speaker brands that are known to consistently measure well. The pair I bought had been in production for 5 years, I'd heard then several times over those 5 years. The electronics are a single box with Class D power, I've used it with several different pairs of speakers, from Quad Electrostatics to difficult to drive Focal and it just seems to do its job without adding anything.

So now you admit to actually doing some homework on the gear other than the "ears only" approach you claimed in the beginning. If you hadn't, you very possibly could have purchased a "sows ear"

 

[Kal Rubinson]

What's the difference between an audiophile and, say, a music lover, or a record collector, a musician, or a teacher?

And why cannot anyone be more than just one of those?