ASR burning the wrong witches?

[Geert]

Today the artist is mostly in control of the total production

That's to much of a generalization. Most music involving multiple musicians playing live instruments are recorded in studio's, usually with an engineer and producer because the complexity is much higher than creating a complete song with a midi keyboard and DAW. For certain music genres this is still the most popular way of working. And lot's of artists are just not interested in learning recording and mixing techniques, or don't want to spend weeks on their own in a home studio.

 

[sarumbear]

I have no idea about Tomita. I don't think I've heard anything he/they have recorded. MJ Jarre I have heard of and I have a copy of his album Oxygen I think.
I listened to it once, didn't like it, but I gather the recording is well thought of.

Yes. Pink Floyed have had a number of recording Engineers involved at various stages of their career. Their sound, if they have a particular sound consistent throughout their numerous recordings I and many other would attribute to Roger Waters.

Both Tomita and JMJ are artists and engineers

 

[anmpr1]

https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/critic1.htm

“What is the number one determinant of sound quality in an audio system? The recording you are playing, without the slightest doubt.

Speaking broadly I'd say Peter was correct. [Next in his line was the speaker/room interface, BTW.]

You can easily mod the FR of your loudspeaker/room interface. You can even change out the former if you believe it is important (but most people are not willing to change out their room). On the other hand, there's nothing anyone can do about the recording. That's a fixed commodity.

Of course the main point he was making was that the things most audiophiles (or at least a very many audiophiles) think are important (cables, preamps, DACs and so forth-- the things that ink and bad blood is spilt over), have the least impact, if any, on what you are going to hear in your living room once you flip the switch to 'on'.

 

[DanielT]

Speaking broadly I'd say Peter was correct. [Next in his line was the speaker/room interface, BTW.]

You can easily mod the FR of your loudspeaker/room interface. You can even change out the former if you believe it is important (but most people are not willing to change out their room). On the other hand, there's nothing anyone can do about the recording. That's a fixed commodity.

Of course the main point he was making was that the things most audiophiles (or at least a very many audiophiles) think are important (cables, preamps, DACs and so forth-- the things that ink and bad blood is spilt over), have the least impact, if any, on what you are going to hear in your living room once you flip the switch to 'on'.

A dish with too little salt in, easy to fix. One with too much salt, a completely different ball game.

Although I agree with yours main point.

 

[anmpr1]

A dish with too little salt in, easy to fix. One with too much salt, a completely different ball game. Although I agree with yours main point.

When I set my sub level, I used a couple of 'bass prominent' recordings (one was, FWIW, Go Together featuring Carla Bley and Steve Swallow..., just a bass and piano, but having what I consider a 'natural' sound). Adjusting by ear I matched sub/main levels to the point that I couldn't easily tell which was which, and couldn't very well localize the sub by ear. Not too bad.

But with that particular crossover/level setting some recordings are 'bass shy', and others are too heavy. At least IMO. What can be done? You get to the point that all you can do is make the most of what you have. A 'one size fits all' thing, and then live with it. The latest DAC or fancy cables aren't going to fix it. If I never buy another DAC it will be too soon.

 

[Spkrdctr]

But with that particular crossover/level setting some recordings are 'bass shy', and others are too heavy. At least IMO. What can be done? You get to the point that all you can do is make the most of what you have. A 'one size fits all' thing, and then live with it. The latest DAC or fancy cables aren't going to fix it. If I never buy another DAC it will be too soon.

Wise words! I mentioned that when one buys a sub to make sure they get a remote control for adjusting the sound level. I was jumped on by a bunch of people who have no clue what they are talking about. Saying that they never have to adjust their sub levels and how my setup was of course all screwed up. But, I listen to different streaming from Amazon and YouTube and such so the recording levels are all over the place. Glad to see another person enjoying the different levels required on their sub. Even though it was a long time ago, I think a lot of the ASR posters tend to argue almost anything just to argue. So, I bring up less than I used too. Having everyone argue just to argue gets old real fast. So, I then turn on the TV and walk away from the computer which is always set to show ASR all the time. I'm an addict but even an addict can only shoot up so much heroin at one time!

 

[Mart68]

Confusing replay quality with recording quality is classic audiophile stuff.

Recording quality has nothing to do with the hobby of high fidelity replay where the idea is to replay as accurately as possible to what is on the recording whether it was made at the finest state of the art facility in the world or by a mate of a mate on a 4 track Tascam tape deck in his dad's garage.

I can understand Classical music fans discussing which version of a performance is better, both from a technical point of view (noise and other flaws, the microphone techniques used etc; or from an artistic interpretation or quality of musicianship angle.

But with popular music (excluding cover versions) we are talking about original composition rather than multiple different interpretations of someone else's' work.

There's also a big misunderstanding amongst audiophiles as to why popular recordings sound like they do. The Oasis album 'Definitely Maybe' is often criticised as a 'poor recording' but in fact it is what it is intended it to sound like:

''The sessions were unsatisfactory and Bonehead recalled, "It wasn't happening. [Batchelor] was the wrong person for the job... we'd play in this great big room, buzzing to be in this studio, playing like we always played. He'd say, 'Come in and have a listen.' And we'd be like, 'That doesn't sound like it sounded in that room. What's that?' It was thin. Weak. Too clean.''

''Morris worked on mastering the album at Johnny Marr's studio in Manchester. He recalled that Marr was "appalled by how 'in your face' the whole thing was" and would question Morris' mixing choices, such as leaving the background noise at the beginning of "Cigarettes & Alcohol".

I have a Steve Wilson remix of Tull's 'Songs From The Wood.' It sounds excellent, very clean with crystal clear highs. It sounds like it was recorded yesterday. It does not sound like it was recorded in at Morgan Studios in 1976, which it was. (Not that the original is in any way a poor recording). But the remix just sounds inauthentic and 'wrong' to me, even though it is clearly better from a 'sound quality' point of view. It's 'Too clean.'

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that The Ramones' 'End Of The Century' sounds a bit 'muddy'. Maybe it does. But that's part of what that recording is. With modern tech you could remix, clean it all up, make them sound like Dire Straits on speed. But who wants that? Not me.

 

[clearnfc]

Well of course if we're talking about actual technical flaws in the recording...those are going to be pretty easy to identify. But when if comes to "measuring" the quality of general record production we're in a pretty subjective area. I mean if I look at the Ramones first five albums, I'd say the first 3 sound real good. Road to Ruin is a little too "clean" and pristine-sounding and End Of The Century is a bit of a muddy mess. I'm sure there's people out there who feel otherwise. But I'm certainly not wasting any time trying to put together a selection of components that somehow works some magic on End Of The Century specifically. I want to hear all five different albums in whatever form they are recorded whether good or not so good...

OK, I have a question. If we are not able to measure these qualities of the recording, how are we going to measure if the equipment is reproducing these qualities correctly?

 

[Beave]

OK, I have a question. If we are not able to measure these qualities of the recording, how are we going to measure if the equipment is reproducing these qualities correctly?

By using the principles of electrical engineering.

 

[Zensō]

Lots of artistic decisions being made here by one of the best.

 

[clearnfc]

By using the principles of electrical engineering.

Err, are you replying to the right person or post??

 

[Beave]

Err, are you replying to the right person or post??

Well, I'm not entirely sure, given that you have two different user names here, @escksu

 

[clearnfc]

Well, I'm not entirely sure, given that you have two different user names here, @escksu

Ya, I am not sure whats the password of my old account anymore... Neither do I have access to the email to reset my password....If I clear my browser cache, it will be gone....hmmm.... I think I will have to find some ways to get back the password.

Anyway, as usual, feel free to ignore my comments if you don't agree with it and I wil do the same.

 

[Beave]

So how does that explain the 4 month window in which you were active on both accounts?

 

[clearnfc]

So how does that explain the 4 month window in which you were active on both accounts?

Browser cache, so your passwords are automatically saved and you will auto login through cookies. As long as I don't clear my browser cache, it will be there.... I have more than 1 computer/tablet/phone and I don't clear the cache often.

 

[MrOtto]

Is there a site for rating/reviewing the recording of published music?

 

[antcollinet]

OK, I have a question. If we are not able to measure these qualities of the recording, how are we going to measure if the equipment is reproducing these qualities correctly?

That is an odd question. We can measure precisely the music that is in the recording, so we can tell if it is being reproduced. What can't be measured (because it is a subjective assessment) is the quality of the mastering of that recording, or were the microphones positioned correctly, have bad FR, or distort, or was the room having a bad influence, or.. or... or... .

 

[Mart68]

Is there a site for rating/reviewing the recording of published music?

Hi Fi News & Record Review used to rate recordings for performance quality and recording quality, I don't know if they still do.

That sort of makes sense for Classical music but for popular music it's a fundamental audiophile mistake. For popular music the recording quality is part of the art.

Enthusiast builds a system that makes recordings sound good, audiophile buys recordings that make his system sound good. Putting the cart before the horse.

That basic misunderstanding of what he's supposed to be doing leads to a lot of confusion and wasted time and money for the audiophile.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Hi Fi News & Record Review used to rate recordings for performance quality and recording quality, I don't know if they still do.

That sort of makes sense for Classical music but for popular music it's a fundamental audiophile mistake. For popular music the recording quality is part of the art.

Enthusiast builds a system that makes recordings sound good, audiophile buys recordings that make his system sound good. Putting the cart before the horse.

That basic misunderstanding of what he's supposed to be doing leads to a lot of confusion and wasted time and money for the audiophile.

Recording quality certainly does make sense for Classical music, although I haven't always agrees with the reviewers assessment. I certainly disagree that recording quality is irrelevant to popular forms, (Techo and and a few others withstanding).

Says you: "Enthusiast builds a system that makes recordings sound good, audiophile buys recordings that make his system sound good. Putting the cart before the horse."

Of course I understand the distain for audiophiles here at ASR which is somewhat deserved. However, IMHO, it's the job of the audio system to deliver recording as recorded unembellished. This isn't the philosophy de facto of the likely majority of self-described audiophiles of my acquaintance. They like tube amps or other types that deliver relatively high amounts of distortion, (2nd/3rd order HD), that "embellish" the sound for sure. So maybe you've got you definitions of "enthusiast" and "audiophile" mixed up??

 

[Mart68]

Recording quality certainly does make sense for Classical music, although I haven't always agrees with the reviewers assessment. I certainly disagree that recording quality is irrelevant to popular forms, (Techo and and a few others withstanding).

Says you: "Enthusiast builds a system that makes recordings sound good, audiophile buys recordings that make his system sound good. Putting the cart before the horse."

Of course I understand the distain for audiophiles here at ASR which is somewhat deserved. However, IMHO, it's the job of the audio system to deliver recording as recorded unembellished. This isn't the philosophy de facto of the likely majority of self-described audiophiles of my acquaintance. They like tube amps or other types that deliver relatively high amounts of distortion, (2nd/3rd order HD), that "embellish" the sound for sure. So maybe you've got you definitions of "enthusiast" and "audiophile" mixed up??

yes I too know many people who like tube amps and vinyl, they want the system to create a sound they like. They are, by my definition, audiophiles. Their thinking is very much defined by what is written by subjective reviewers, they have no interest in what is happening in their systems from a technical perspective. They know nothing of how recordings are made and they do not trust recording engineers to make good sounding recordings, if they hear poor sound they will blame the recording, not the playback system.

By my definition an enthusiast is interested in the technical side, he has some understanding of the recording process, he does not blame the recording for poor sound quality, he looks for a technical problem with the system if he hears poor sound.

There is a fundamental difference in these two approaches which defines the 'battle lines' in many debates.