• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

I have a question, has anyone else noticed this?

Axo1989

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
2,820
Likes
2,816
Location
Sydney
The people (looks like there's more than one) who are confused about this keep calling it soundstage. It's just stereo image. If you are sure that doesn't exist, listen in mono.
 

okaudio

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
Messages
27
Likes
17
The people (looks like there's more than one) who are confused about this keep calling it soundstage. It's just stereo image. If you are sure that doesn't exist, listen in mono.
That's kind of what I was getting too. One needs to define exactly what they are trying to measure.

My previous suggestion (below) is just stereo imaging.

okaudio said:
So, for example, you want to measure the distance between two speakers that a sound appears to come from given a known listening position?


Is there really anything not known about stereo imaging already that we need to measure?
 

charleski

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
1,098
Likes
2,239
Location
Manchester UK
Here we go again. In what unit do you measure perceptual processes?
I can't reply to a meaningless question.

Here's a figure from Mills' classic 1958 paper that deals with the minimum audible angle:
Screenshot 2022-04-01 170521.jpg

We are able to discriminate two sound sources separated by 1° when they are at the optimal frequency and located directly ahead. The gap needed to discriminate the sounds widens as they move off towards the sides or shift to unfavorable frequencies.

And here's a comparison of the difference in Minimum Audible Angle (MAA) between real sources (baseline) and virtual sources simulated on a stereo loudspeaker pair using vector-based amplitude panning (VBAP):
Screenshot 2022-04-01 172855.jpg


Stop obsessing over your pre-conceived notions and look at the science. We are perfectly capable of localising the direction of sound sources from both real and simulated auditory scenes. This has been measured and replicated in numerous papers.
 

Timcognito

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,350
Likes
12,565
Location
NorCal
Soundstage from speakers or headphones exists and primarily a component of the physical distance of microphones in relation to the music source and room dynamics, instruments/voice position during recording. If we assume well measuring microphones in recording, and speakers and electronics are used in playback then near perfect soundstage can be achieved in stereo with two microphones and two speakers by.

Distance between the microphones equal to that of the speakers

Distance of microphones or speakers from nearby walls is enough to dilute interference in recording and playback

Height of microphones equal to that of the speakers in relation to the ears of the listener

Vertical angle of microphones equal to that of the speakers

Horizontal angle of microphones equal to that of the speakers

Distance between the microphones and the listener will reproduce equivalent to recorded soundstage distance of the listener from the microphones, though the volume will vary with distance from the speakers

Soundstage emanates from the recording and any well measuring speakers will reveal it if there. The relative sound intensity of each speaker in dB (unit of measure) of the same instrument (point source) allows the listener to place it correctly in space during playback. It is not a property of the speakers but speaker accuracy and placement with room attributes having great affect how much of sound staging will be heard. I agree that would be difficult to measure and those measurements would highly dependent on non-standardized placement metrics, but measurable in controlled recording and playback testing. Faux soundstage is often created by the recording or mixing engineer.
 
Last edited:

pseudoid

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
5,125
Likes
3,439
Location
33.58 -117.88
Yep. I don't even like live music though.
Do you mean attending live music events or recordings thereof?
There are enough cues left that the brain can sense a soundstage, but not enough that most are convinced it is a live (unreproduced) sound, most of the time anyway.
Who am I to argue such a statement, when all I learned was that sound localization was innate in many animal forms; may be NOT for music but certainly for survival...;)
 
Last edited:

maverickronin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
2,527
Likes
3,308
Location
Midwest, USA
Do you mean attending live music events or recordings thereof?

Generally both. I don't like crowds. I can't relax and enjoy the music in one. As for recordings, in modern genres I almost always perfer the studio version to a live version. I don't really listen to enough classical to know for sure if I perfer a traditional minimalist style recording of a live event or the modern "movie soundtrack" style.
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,270
Likes
1,390
"Soundstage" is as real as all the other individual aspects in a stereo reproduction like the phantom center, panned sound objects, and the roomy sound of the recorded space. All those things are part of the stereo image that we call "soundstage". How do we measure the phantom center, how do we measure the position of the panned instruments, and how do we measure the recorded space? Is it really important if we can measure the soundstage or not, it's there in our minds, tricked by the "stereo effect" of all these panned sound objects including the recorded space?

I have had 3 different pairs of speakers in my current listening room over the last 10 years, and all of them had different qualities when it came to stereo imaging (as well as everything else like bass performance and other sound aspects).
I think it all comes down getting the finer details of stereo imaging right which probably depends on a combination of things like distortion level, the dispersion, and how well you have managed to setup the speakers in the room and which compromises you had to do to get the other sound aspects right as well. Good room acoustics and/or a fairly short distance to the speakers to get a higher ratio of direct sound will of course help a lot to hear more of the depth of the recording.

Bla... blah... blah... :)
 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
So you can't tell where a "real" sound is coming from either?

A REAL sound yes. But stereo is just an illusion, and often creates a very fake soundstage, as it usually is not recorded and miked in a way that would allow sound localization, but merely a created soundstage.

A binaural recording comes closer, but most stereo recordings are "Created" to give a certain playback sound, but usually not any reality.
 

Axo1989

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
2,820
Likes
2,816
Location
Sydney
A REAL sound yes. But stereo is just an illusion, and often creates a very fake soundstage, as it usually is not recorded and miked in a way that would allow sound localization, but merely a created soundstage.

A binaural recording comes closer, but most stereo recordings are "Created" to give a certain playback sound, but usually not any reality.
I think @Robin L and @maverickronin have covered this somewhat already by discussing characteristics of live music and different recording and mixing styles. Preference for "real" versus "artificial" stereo image is a matter of aesthetics/taste. I prefer listening to recordings of assembled sounds rather than reproductions of live performance in real spaces. A good deal of the music I like is entirely artificial.

But that's simply personal taste, and orthogonal to questions of audio production/reproduction and related measurement of equipment, setup and perception vis-à-vis stereo image.

Edit: forgot to say, yes I think binaural recordings can be great (and fun to make). Headphone stuff, obviously.
 
Last edited:

Axo1989

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
2,820
Likes
2,816
Location
Sydney
I can't reply to a meaningless question.

Here's a figure from Mills' classic 1958 paper that deals with the minimum audible angle:
View attachment 196959
We are able to discriminate two sound sources separated by 1° when they are at the optimal frequency and located directly ahead. The gap needed to discriminate the sounds widens as they move off towards the sides or shift to unfavorable frequencies.

And here's a comparison of the difference in Minimum Audible Angle (MAA) between real sources (baseline) and virtual sources simulated on a stereo loudspeaker pair using vector-based amplitude panning (VBAP):
View attachment 196964

Stop obsessing over your pre-conceived notions and look at the science. We are perfectly capable of localising the direction of sound sources from both real and simulated auditory scenes. This has been measured and replicated in numerous papers.
I had that 1º number in mind but it's very helpful to see and be able to follow up on some of the published material.

Interesting that the MAA curves are somewhat complex (makes sense given the human physiology involved) and that accuracy is actually lower in the 1 kHz to 3 kHz range. And so on.
 
Last edited:

maverickronin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
2,527
Likes
3,308
Location
Midwest, USA
A REAL sound yes. But stereo is just an illusion, and often creates a very fake soundstage, as it usually is not recorded and miked in a way that would allow sound localization, but merely a created soundstage.

A binaural recording comes closer, but most stereo recordings are "Created" to give a certain playback sound, but usually not any reality.

Why does the fact that it's artificially constructed matter?
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,213
Likes
7,592
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Why does the fact that it's artificially constructed matter?
Pop music, in general, messes with perspectives and balances deliberately. I'm thinking of a recent Analog Planet post. There were two different LP remasterings of Carol King's "Tapestry", Mikey posted needledrops of the two with a poll for preference. I went to YouTube to compare to the official streamed version. It sounded better than either of the two (very similar) needledrops [bass summed to mono, reduced bass levels, more distortion] but that's not the point. This very popular album is an example of standard, non-audiophile pop production that has been ubiquitous for a very long time: up close and top of the mix for a voice that requires amplification anyway, every instrument mic-ed in mono and pan-potted into position, most instruments with close mic-ing that destroys perspective, every element compressed into place. That sort of production is not concerned with how the recording sounds played back over the best equipment---it's a lot more concerned with how the recording will sound on the worst equipment, like a car radio. That's because the producers of this album were aiming for a hit, so they worked at coming up with a sound that would grab people's ears if they overheard the song on the radio. And that's SOP for pop and that's why so much pop has crappy sounding production. This is not something recent, something we can blame on "Digital", but the way things are for the most popular music and have been all the way back to the beginning of commercial recording.

The best modern pop production creates soundscapes that would otherwise be impossible and are their own reward. As regards the audiophile concept of the "pure" recording with minimal microphones---like ORTF or coincident miking---that can be a fun illusion on good playback gear and is somewhat closer to "reality", but ultimately the coloration of the microphone and the pick-up pattern of the microphone guarantee that the resultant sound will be a distant cousin to the real thing. In any case, that sort of production applies to genres of music that will not sell in massive quantities, chamber music of various sorts, some Jazz, some folk.
 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
Why does the fact that it's artificially constructed matter?
I am not sure it does.
I just meant that localizing sounds in a created soundstage is sort of pointless to "some" degree, as there was never a real event that is being recreated, but simply a created event that even if we could measure soundstage there is no real thing to compare it to ...
 

maverickronin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
2,527
Likes
3,308
Location
Midwest, USA
Perhaps for some people the illusion being created sounds less credible, and that matters.

I think that's mostly just genre preference. When you prefer fully acoustic genres and want to experience a recreation of a live event at home you have different goals and not just different expectations when compared to amplified or synthetic genres.

I just meant that localizing sounds in a created soundstage is sort of pointless to "some" degree, as there was never a real event that is being recreated, but simply a created event that even if we could measure soundstage there is no real thing to compare it to ...

Why should I care if there is a "real" event or not? Creating the soundscape is part of the art.

Like I said before, It's like comparing a stage play to a movie. Why is it some kind of deep philosophical problem that the scenes are all shot out of order, edited together later, and have some CGI sprinkled on top?

@Robin L seems to have the right idea.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,213
Likes
7,592
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
I think that's mostly just genre preference. When you prefer fully acoustic genres and want to experience a recreation of a live event at home you have different goals and not just different expectations when compared to amplified or synthetic genres.
One has the expectation that sitting close to a Jazz ensemble or recorder quartet [I'll demon-strait where they meet up] will be arranged like the proscenium arc of an ORTF configuration, whereas the "real thing" is more likely to image like a vague blur on the left.

Why should I care if there is a "real" event or not? Creating the soundscape is part of the art.

Like I said before, It's like comparing a stage play to a movie. Why is it some kind of deep philosophical problem that the scenes are all shot out of order, edited together later, and have some CGI sprinkled on top?

@Robin L seems to have the right idea.
Not all that modern an example, but anyway:

 

Axo1989

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
2,820
Likes
2,816
Location
Sydney
Why should I care if there is a "real" event or not? Creating the soundscape is part of the art.
I enjoy a good hyperreal soundscape.
Why is it some kind of deep philosophical problem that the scenes are all shot out of order, edited together later, and have some CGI sprinkled on top?
Well, there was Dogme 95. To this day I appreciate films that don't lay the non-diagetic music on too thick.
 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
I think that's mostly just genre preference. When you prefer fully acoustic genres and want to experience a recreation of a live event at home you have different goals and not just different expectations when compared to amplified or synthetic genres.



Why should I care if there is a "real" event or not? Creating the soundscape is part of the art.

Like I said before, It's like comparing a stage play to a movie. Why is it some kind of deep philosophical problem that the scenes are all shot out of order, edited together later, and have some CGI sprinkled on top?

@Robin L seems to have the right idea.

Because I thought the question was...."HOW do we measure soundstage".....??

If there is nothing real to compare it to, nor any unit of measure......

I never said I cared or not about it being real or not, but I thought we were discussing how IT can be measured was my only point.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,213
Likes
7,592
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
I am not sure it does.
I just meant that localizing sounds in a created soundstage is sort of pointless to "some" degree, as there was never a real event that is being recreated, but simply a created event that even if we could measure soundstage there is no real thing to compare it to ...
Think of it as deliberate CG[Sonic]I in the realm of creating a soundstage.

Reality is passé, we can do better.

I suppose there might be a handbook for soundstaging, particularly for mixing movies for surround, but remember that it is all illusion, artifice. I suspect the people creating these soundscapes might have parameters within to develop sonic effects. If you're really looking for numbers that apply to soundstaging you might want to look in that direction.
 
Top Bottom