Octave Music Don Grusin High Resolution Music Analysis (Video)

[pkane]

And let's review;
It is because it doesn't employ two unnecessary conversions on the data path from ADC to DAC. And yes it has less problems due to that.

You keep saying that. But tell me, which of the two files below has less ultrasonic noise? White is DSD256, blue is DXD352:

Files are nearly the same size. One can be edited, processed, DSP'ed using any conventional software. The other can't. Which one is better?

 

[amirm]

Yes they do, huge amount of imaging distortion, and you need a brickwall filter to remove it.

Of course you need a filter. That is what the theory mandates. At higher sample rates as explained to you, it doesn't at all need to be brick wall.

Your format on the other hand, by design, pumps out ultrasonic noice.

 

[Miska]

Of course you need a filter. That is what the theory mandates. At higher sample rates as explained to you, it doesn't at all need to be brick wall.

So where can I buy content that is high enough rate that it can be reconstructed accurately with similar order filter that already gives you flat noise floor with DSD? And preferably also from a real PCM ADC, not some PCM conversion from DSD-like data.

Do you even know what kind of filter specs would give you flat noise floor with those DSD sources?

In addition I recall you ridiculing PCM R2R DACs. And advertising those SDM DACs that precisely generate the noise you are talking about in order to operate. That cannot play PCM natively.

By definition, SDM (DSD) D/A converter is a low-pass filter.

Your format on the other hand, by design, pumps out ultrasonic noice.

Luckily it is just random noise that would sound like a tape hiss if you could hear it. Not horrible distortion like PCM.

 

[Miska]

You keep saying that. But tell me, which of the two files below has less ultrasonic noise? White is DSD256, blue is DXD352:

View attachment 195045

The blue one is filtered through different filter than the white one. Now take for example 2L-38 album for comparison.

What kind of reconstruction filter did you use for the white one?

Files are nearly the same size. One can be edited, processed, DSP'ed using any conventional software. The other can't. Which one is better?

The one that is the original recording format.

I can DSP process both equally.

 

[pkane]

And let's review;
It is because it doesn't employ two unnecessary conversions on the data path from ADC to DAC. And yes it has less problems due to that.

Let's compare DSD256 to PCM192 in more detail using DeltaWave. File size DSD=627MB, PCM=151MB. DSD is 4x larger.

Spectrum comparison (blue line under the white one, blue=PCM, white=DSD, all comparisons are bw=0-96kHz):

Spectrum of the difference file (null) between DSD and PCM waveforms, after matching levels and phase:

Difference of spectra between DSD and PCM:

Phase difference between DSD and PCM:

 

[Miska]

Let's compare DSD256 to PCM192 in more detail using DeltaWave. File size DSD=627MB, PCM=151MB. DSD is 4x larger.

Now compare it from ADI-2 (AKM chipset) analog output (in DSD Direct mode) at 5 MHz bandwidth. DSD256 will give you more accurate result of the original than the PCM192. Because 192k will have a lot of ultrasonic distortion, while DSD256 will have a little bit of remainder noise.

 

[Miska]

I'm not interested on someone's conversion of the original recording format to something else, with some tools of unknown quality and performance. I can do what ever conversions I need, from the original format to what ever output format I want, in realtime using algorithms I know and have control over.

When I look at datasheets of ADC chips of the digital filter performance there, used for the PCM conversion, I know I could do much better than that. So if possible, I'd rather have just the raw bare SDM data straight from the modulator, thank you.

 

[pkane]

Now compare it from ADI-2 analog output (in DSD Direct mode) at 5 MHz bandwidth. DSD256 will give you more accurate result of the original than the PCM192.

This is the frustration I have with your arguments. Everything I posted here was to see if the more expensive and less convenient online and commercial DSD content is in some way higher resolution than the cheaper, smaller, and easier to manipulate PCM. That is the point of this whole thread.

I'm not interested on someone's conversion of the original recording format to something else, with some tools of unknown quality and performance. I can do what ever conversions I need, from the original format to what ever output format I want, in realtime using algorithms I know and have control over.

Then why are you arguing in this thread? It's not about HQPlayer and what can be achieved with a 20-core processor and a super-duper GPU along with custom algorithms. It's about online sales of DSD content that is not better, and possibly worse than hi-res PCM. And yet, it costs more and is touted as being extremely hi-res while containing mostly noise in the ultrasonics.

 

[amirm]

Luckily it is just random noise that would sound like a tape hiss if you could hear it. Not horrible distortion like PCM.

It is not lucky. It is the opposite of what customers want to buy. This is why my video was such an eye opener for folks. They had no idea about this ugly truth in DSD encoding.

PCM performance is what I measure in DACs which have sunk many dBs below threshold of hearing. Here is a random example:

Distortion spikes at -135 dB. Combined noise+distotion is 5 dB better than threshold of hearing. This is stunning level of performance and is achieved for as little as $150.

So I suggest taking your misinformation campaign elsewhere. This dog don't hunt here....

 

[amirm]

Now compare it from ADI-2 (AKM chipset) analog output (in DSD Direct mode) at 5 MHz bandwidth.

5 MHz? Are you from this planet?

 

[Blumlein 88]

5 MHz? Are you from this planet?

Accuracy at the 5 mhz point is where the extra space, 3D realism, and final measure of satisfaction kick in surely...............

I mean assuming the speaker responds to 5 mhz the air will absorb those frequencies to the tune of about 4000 db per meter. Somebody has been impacted by too much SONAR I think.

 

[kongwee]

If pro verison is 11.2 MHz

ADI-2-Pro FS - RME Audio Interfaces | Format Converters | Preamps | Network Audio & MADI Solutions

RME Audio Professional Live, Studio, Recording and Broadcast Solutions. Unrivalled Quality, Performance & Stability MADI Interfaces, Converters & Preamps.

www.rme-audio.de

https://www.akm.com/content/dam/documents/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4493eq/ak4493eq-en-productbrief.pdf

non pro

ADI-2-DAC FS - RME Audio Interfaces | Format Converters | Preamps | Network Audio & MADI Solutions

RME Audio Professional Live, Studio, Recording and Broadcast Solutions. Unrivalled Quality, Performance & Stability MADI Interfaces, Converters & Preamps.

www.rme-audio.de

https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/ES9028Q2M_Datasheet_v0.41.pdf

 

[amirm]

If pro verison is 11.2 MHz

You understand what that is???

 

[kongwee]

You understand what that is???

Lower floor noise for audible frequency at DAC output level.

 

[amirm]

Lower floor noise for audible frequency at DAC output level.

A format that requires 11 MHz sampling rate in order to encode music that ends in 20 to 30 kHz, is severely broken.

 

[kongwee]

A format that requires 11 MHz sampling rate in order to encode music that ends in 20 to 30 kHz, is severely broken.

Same for equivalent PCM sampling rate that you alway advocate about. For me DAC matter more.

 

[Ricardus]

Same for equivalent PCM sampling rate that you alway advocate about. For me DAC matter more.

PCM requires an 11 MHz sample rate?

 

[kongwee]

PCM requires an 11 MHz sample rate?

Nope, but the data size is about the same when converting between DSD-PCM without loss. Of course, PCM is much higher bits rate and despite much lower sampling rate than DSD.

 

[Ricardus]

Nope, but the data size is about the same when converting between DSD-PCM without loss. Of course, PCM is much higher bits rate and despite much lower sampling rate than DSD.

What does file size have to do with 11 MHz?

 

[amirm]

Same for equivalent PCM sampling rate that you alway advocate about. For me DAC matter more.

I advocate? I advocate 24 bit/48 kHz sampling or at best 88.2 kHz. Nothing remotely in Megahertz range let alone 11.