Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[gfinlays]

If measurements are everything, I've got some bad news for LP lovers

This distortion chart is for a Vertere Sabre Cartridge that goes for around $1000:

View attachment 192200

This is the frequency response of the cartridge:
View attachment 192199
This supposedly is an above average cartridge, so just imagine the measurements for something less than average.

Hi-Fi News Verdict
As you've now surmised, unless you're reading this for free at a newsstand and went straight to the conclusion, I adore the Sabre. It's richer-sounding than current MMs in my experience, but no less detailed and precise, with plenty of speed and attack for coping with transients. While there's still a magical warmth to moving-coils which separates them from moving-magnets, this narrows the gap to insignificance.

Vertere Sabre Cartridge Page 2

Tracking force was set to 2g, and it never misbehaved, even at the inner points with some deep-grooved, overly-modulated 12in singles. In other words, it behaved like a classic top-of-the-range MM, à la the venerable Shure V15s, but without emulating their now-out-of-fashion 1g downforce.

www.hifinews.com

Vertere Sabre Cartridge

This Brit-brand's range of audiophile pick-ups grows yet again with a sub-£1000 model slotting between its entry-level MM and flagship MC. Will the Sabre cut through? In the heated-up marketplace that is 'LP Playback Circa 2022', and as with the ModWright PH 9.0 phono stage, we are also...

www.hifinews.com

Looks like some sort of resonance going on around 6 - 7 kHz.

 

[solderdude]

If measurements are everything, I've got some bad news for LP lovers

This distortion chart is for a Vertere Sabre Cartridge that goes for around $1000:

View attachment 192200

This is the frequency response of the cartridge:
View attachment 192199
This supposedly is an above average cartridge, so just imagine the measurements for something less than average.

Hi-Fi News Verdict
As you've now surmised, unless you're reading this for free at a newsstand and went straight to the conclusion, I adore the Sabre. It's richer-sounding than current MMs in my experience, but no less detailed and precise, with plenty of speed and attack for coping with transients. While there's still a magical warmth to moving-coils which separates them from moving-magnets, this narrows the gap to insignificance.

Vertere Sabre Cartridge Page 2

Tracking force was set to 2g, and it never misbehaved, even at the inner points with some deep-grooved, overly-modulated 12in singles. In other words, it behaved like a classic top-of-the-range MM, à la the venerable Shure V15s, but without emulating their now-out-of-fashion 1g downforce.

www.hifinews.com

Vertere Sabre Cartridge

This Brit-brand's range of audiophile pick-ups grows yet again with a sub-£1000 model slotting between its entry-level MM and flagship MC. Will the Sabre cut through? In the heated-up marketplace that is 'LP Playback Circa 2022', and as with the ModWright PH 9.0 phono stage, we are also...

www.hifinews.com

And then there is the RIAA correction, cartridge loading (capacitance and resistance), cable capacitance and possible rumble filters that could change the final result yet again.
Still it could sound wonderful because of all of these changes.

 

[Robin L]

I don't know much about vinyl really, but that's just madness!

This is what north of $5000 looks like:

Hi-Fi News Verdict
Boron versus Reference Ruby addresses a sonic trait that's not qualitative, so scoring is identical. This exceptional cartridge is differentiated from the Ruby by being more ear-friendly and less critical of the rest of the system. In some set-ups, then, the Ruby's arch precision, attack and speed will be preferred and exploited. For a more relaxed experience, though, the Boron is the ticket. And you saved £2000...

AVID Boron Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report This, to all intents and purposes, is AVID's flagship MC [HFN Nov '20] but with the ruby cantilever replaced by a boron rod of equivalent length. It shares the same 3x70µm 'micro-ridge' diamond, suspension and 9g bodyweight, yielding (you guessed it) the same low 9cu compliance for...

www.hifinews.com

 

[Robin L]

And then there is the RIAA correction, cartridge loading (capacitance and resistance), cable capacitance and possible rumble filters that could change the final result yet again.
Still it could sound wonderful because of all of these changes.

While I am aware that the FR can be adjusted to one's liking, I rather doubt that anything can be done about the execrable distortion measurements.

 

[solderdude]

While I am aware that the FR can be adjusted to one's liking, I rather doubt that anything can be done about the execrable distortion measurements.

True... then again many (headphone) transducers also have similar issues at the same frequencies (at higher SPL).

 

[Robin L]

True... then again many (headphone) transducers also have similar issues at the same frequencies (at higher SPL).

Doubtless---it's a transducer thing, so one can juggle the variables, but there are limits. Like the old saw about speakers and amps, you can have more volume per watt but less bass or vice versa, but you can't have small, loud and go down to 20 hz---you have to give up one of the three. I suspect there's less wiggle room with LPs and phono cartridges.

Here's a link to a review of a classic cartridge that now goes for around $600:

Denon DL-A110 Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report This iconic MC design offers a useful 0.55mV/200ohm output (re. 1kHz/5cm/sec) – albeit with a moderate 0.85dB channel imbalance in our sample – which is some 3dB higher than the rated 0.39mV that came with the certificate. The reference response also supplied with each DL-A110 shows a...

www.hifinews.com

Compare these sorts of measurements to something like this:

Topping E30 DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping E30 USB DAC. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. Unfortunately I did not get pricing information. As soon as I get it, I will post it. EDIT: just heard back. US cost is just $129.99! This is a bit of a new look...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[anotherhobby]

My room is set up pretty well, I think. Speaker positioning is optimal, some diffusion and absorption to control the worst reflections. Maybe I should look at some EQ to correct the room nodes too?

I think correcting room modes with DSP (either via EQ or room correction software) is the biggest impact you can make on the overall sound quality a system, outside of speaker/sub changes and well done room treatments. The graph below compares the room response of Dirac on a miniDSP Flex in my office (two speakers, two subs) vs. nothing other than a decent amount of room treatments. The difference between the two is massively noticeable.

 

[audioholic63]

EDIT: This comment was moved from the CXA81 review thread.

I am curious, and I am not intending to incur wrath or be branded apostate, but what do these distortion figures actually mean in terms of audio performance?

I agree that modern equipment should be able to test to a certain level of measurement (esp at that price point and the accompanying ad copy from Cambridge) but how does that translate at the speaker? Not in terms of any ethereal subjective description of the musical experience, but will it actually impede the ability to properly reproduce audio frequencies that in any way the casual listener will detect? As a vacuum tube user I understand implicitly that my amps will not measure well but I still like the sound that is coming out of the speaker.

Were I in the market for a modern stereo integrated there is nothing about the CXA81 that I find appealing either in aesthetics or perceived value for the features, regardless of the price. But in real world application is it likely to sound any different from a competing product from Denon or Yamaha or [fill in the blank]?

 

[mccririck]

Possibly you like it that sound more than something else. Does not make it better. Objectively, there's nothing in this DAC better, at 5x the price.

If you have not compared them both by listening then you do not know that.

 

[BDWoody]

If you have not compared them both by listening then you do not know that.

I have a fork that makes steak taste better. If you haven't compared, you can't know it doesn't.

 

[Killingbeans]

If you have not compared them both by listening then you do not know that.

Depends on how you do the listening.

You can try to determine whether there actually is an audible difference. You can try to determine whether a specific audible difference fits your personal taste. Or you can try to determine whether your preconceptions of the product results in an audible difference.

Simply just A/B-ing two products will give you indication of how you personally perceive them, but if you want to separate real differences from bias and want to find out how those two speak to your personal taste, it takes a lot more effort (tests with controls and statistical significance).

It will also make an actual recommendation possible, rather than just "try it for yourself and see"

 

[mccririck]

I have a fork that makes steak taste better. If you haven't compared, you can't know it doesn't.

As you know there are two camps on this matter. Proper double blind listening tests would be required with experienced audiophiles taking part to scientifically prove the point either way and to my knowledge that hasn't been done yet.

 

[flz]

As you know there are two camps on this matter. Proper double blind listening tests would be required with experienced audiophiles taking part to scientifically prove the point either way and to my knowledge that hasn't been done yet.

No, I think you mean prominent food critics and Michelin guide (restaurant) reviewers?

 

[mccririck]

No, I think you mean prominent food critics and Michelin guide (restaurant) reviewers?

No, experienced hifi listeners who have listened to a lot of equipment would be my choice. People who's ears and brains are accustomed to the task.

 

[flz]

No, experienced hifi listeners who have listened to a lot of equipment would be my choice. People who's ears and brains are accustomed to the task.

Sure, but what would they know about forks & steak? BdWoody's sarcastic (i assume sarcastic) remark actually isn't that far-fetched. Ever heard wine enthusiasts debate about how the wine glass massively affects the taste of wine?

 

[mccririck]

Sure, but what would they know about forks & steak? BdWoody's sarcastic (i assume sarcastic) remark actually isn't that far-fetched. Ever heard wine enthusiasts debate about how the wine glass massively affects the taste of wine?

I'm not interested in comparisons with such things. You just come across as being intolerant and, dare I say it, unscientific.

 

[flz]

I have a fork that makes steak taste better. If you haven't compared, you can't know it doesn't.

That's literally a great idea, creating forks that make steak taste better. Just look at the massive amounts of effort around the world at designing wine glasses to make wine taste better. This may be no different! Getting right the angle of how the piece of meat hits the tongue at the right spot, VC money will come your way!

 

[flz]

I'm not interested in comparisons with such things. You just come across as being intolerant and, dare I say it, unscientific.

Ah, yes, being unscientific is the taboo/ultimate sin of ASR.

 

[mccririck]

Ah, yes, being unscientific is the taboo/ultimate sin of ASR.

Well, you do seem to like to stir up pointless arguments. As I have pointed out to you already, the necessary scientifically conducted listening tests have not been conducted so you cannot claim to hold the correct opinion.

 

[mccririck]

This is a hobby, can't we have a bit of fun & humor? I think that was BDWoody's intention with the steak knives. But if you disagree, fine.

The humour gets a bit old. I've been in this hobby for over 25 years, and remember these type of discussions back in the 90s on audio asylum.