Marantz SA-10 Review (SACD Player & DAC)

[PeteL]

A CD player is also just a computer running software.. remember, we could do this in the 90’s already in a handheld device .

You must be a software guy... It's OK... But we will have to agree to disagree. I do electronics. Different thinking, no I don't think a CD player is a computer running software.

 

[DonR]

Audible differences aren’t generally recognised on ASR.

Because they are all in your head.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Sure the USB input has to go through a conversion process to SPDIF and the laser signal cannot be fed directly into the DAC chip.

This is not a citation. But also, SPDIF is not an audio format, it's an interface. If you're playing a 16bit, 44kHz redbook audio .wav file over USB, the data you're feeding into the DAC is identical to that which is being read off of a CD.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Because they are all in your head.

Along with my ears!

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

This is not a citation. But also, SPDIF is not an audio format, it's an interface. If you're playing a 16bit, 44kHz redbook audio .wav file over USB, the data you're feeding into the DAC is identical to that which is being read off of a CD.

Does a USB signal need to be converted

 

[voodooless]

You must be a software guy...

I’m more of a holistic kind of guy but yes, I lean more towards the software side of things. The Xmos, CPLD and the DSP on the board are all “running” software. There are probably some more uC’s in there as well. But some of the stuff will be done in non-programmable silicon for sure.

 

[voodooless]

Does a USB signal need to be converted

Is the file on your cloud drive different from the one stored on your cloud synced USB disc drive?

 

[SuicideSquid]

Does a USB signal need to be converted

I think you're equivocating between two meanings of the word "converted".

Assuming the laser mechanism is working correctly, the 1s and 0s the DAC is receiving from a CD, or from a wav rip of the CD being transmitted over USB, are identical. There is no format conversion going on.

The physical signal is being transmitted over different connections but this is not what "conversion" means when we're talking about audio information. There's no 'conversion' of the 1s and 0s into a different format before they're reaching the DAC.

There's nothing 'magic' about digital audio. Your input is 1s and 0s, and your output is an analog waveform. If your 1s and 0s in are the same, and your analog waveform out is the same, then what you have is the same, and any perceived difference is entirely in your head. If you feed a DAC 1s and 0s over USB, directly off a CD, over an optical SPDIF connection, or via any other source, if the 1s and 0s hitting the DAC are the same, the output's going to be the same.

In this case, unless you can provide some evidence that the Marantz player is doing some kind of processing and format conversion on the USB input it's not doing on the CD input, then the output, from a 16/44 signal, will be exactly the same.

 

[PeteL]

I’m more of a holistic kind of guy but yes, I lean more towards the software side of things. The Xmos, CPLD and the DSP on the board are all “running” software. There are probably some more uC’s in there as well. But some of the stuff will be done in non-programmable silicon for sure.

Try to implement the process that you referred to (8X reading, error correction, reading interrupts) on a XMOS chip, and get back to me when it's done, I even let you put 128 MB of Flash in there as a measure of good faith.

 

[Blumlein 88]

As I said USB in SPDIF out, not the same as feeding an SPDIF signal into the chip. Whichever way you look at it internal or external a conversion process is needed.

Most likely this is not happening. The USB data is delivered to the DAC and a free running clock is used most likely over an I2S interface. No SPDIF conversion needed, and it would only add jitter if it were there. Further you likely could never hear such a conversion were it to take place. Which again there is no such conversion in this case. You are imagining a difference which isn't there.

 

[SuicideSquid]

And I am telling you CD players don't do that. They stream samples in a synchronous manner.

Many CD players buffer - every car audio and portable CD player made in the past 25 years has included a buffer, for example.

This is a red herring though - aside from avoiding skips if something interrupts the player reading the CD, the presence or absence of a buffer will make no difference at all in the output of the CD player. It's the same 1s and 0s whether you're streaming them directly off the CD or buffering them in memory for 30 seconds first.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Does a USB signal need to be converted

NO!

 

[SMc]

That being said, a $250 Sony UBP-X700/M universal disc player probably performs about as well on the measurements. Dedicated SACD players tend to cost a lot more due to the target market segment.

@amirm - the Sony UBP-X800M2 plays SACDs and has an Ethernet connection for $330. Could it be tested using your standard test suite if you had one?

Ha, you were reading my mind, I'd love to see Amirm review the Sony UBP-X800M2.

Bear in mind the Sony players don't have analog outputs.

 

[PeteL]

Many CD players buffer - every car audio and portable CD player made in the past 25 years has included a buffer, for example.

This is a red herring though - aside from avoiding skips if something interrupts the player reading the CD, the presence or absence of a buffer will make no difference at all in the output of the CD player. It's the same 1s and 0s whether you're streaming them directly off the CD or buffering them in memory for 30 seconds first.

OK so no error correction? I tought all CD players had a buffer, not just portable and car ones. I am using synchronous in a loose way here, as in real time, I made it clear in the rest of the conversation. It's not asynchronous in the way USB is, it's not reclocked, just buffered.

 

[voodooless]

Try to implement the process that you referred to (8X reading, error correction, reading interrupts) on a XMOS chip, and get back to me when it's done, I even let you put 128 MB of RAM in there as a measure of good faith.

I don’t need most of it. A SATA drive would do most of the heavy lifting already. Sadly the Xmos does not have a Sata interface. I once bitbanged an IDE drive to a ATMega128. It was fast fast enough to read a data CD and play a MP3. Those were the times…

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I think you're equivocating between two meanings of the word "converted".

Assuming the laser mechanism is working correctly, the 1s and 0s the DAC is receiving from a CD, or from a wav rip of the CD being transmitted over USB, are identical. There is no format conversion going on.

The physical signal is being transmitted over different connections but this is not what "conversion" means when we're talking about audio information. There's no 'conversion' of the 1s and 0s into a different format before they're reaching the DAC.

There's nothing 'magic' about digital audio. Your input is 1s and 0s, and your output is an analog waveform. If your 1s and 0s in are the same, and your analog waveform out is the same, then what you have is the same, and any perceived difference is entirely in your head. If you feed a DAC 1s and 0s over USB, directly off a CD, over an optical SPDIF connection, or via any other source, if the 1s and 0s hitting the DAC are the same, the output's going to be the same.

In this case, unless you can provide some evidence that the Marantz player is doing some kind of processing and format conversion on the USB input it's not doing on the CD input, then the output, from a 16/44 signal, will be exactly the same.

The CD player’s laser reads optically this must then be converted to digital 1s and 0s is that right? The USB signal isn’t optical and therefore they are different so any processing taking place is different? Doesn’t matter whether it’s a Marantz product or anyone else’s.

 

[PeteL]

I don’t need most of it. A SATA drive would do most of the heavy lifting already. Sadly the Xmos does not have a Sata interface. I once bitbanged an IDE drive to a ATMega128. It fast fast enough to read a CD and play a MP3. Those were the times…

Alright, I'd continue that but it's off topic...

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

NO!

Then why if a DAC doesn’t have a USB input a converter is required. Why do computers bother with a USB output if it’s compatible with a standard SPDIF signal, when a coaxial cable would do!

 

[SuicideSquid]

The CD player’s laser reads optically this must then be converted to digital 1s and 0s is that right? The USB signal isn’t optical and therefore they are different so any processing taking place is different? Doesn’t matter whether it’s a Marantz product or anyone else’s.

So what? This isn't "processing" in the sense that converting an analog signal to a digital signal is "processing" or in the sense that converting a 16/44 file to 24/48 is. This is just reading 1s and 0s and transmitting it, possibly with slightly different header information depending on the connection you're using. The actual data that's being transmitted is identical, it's not altered by the means of transmission in any way.

 

[Chrispy]

The CD player’s laser reads optically this must then be converted to digital 1s and 0s is that right? The USB signal isn’t optical and therefore they are different so any processing taking place is different? Doesn’t matter whether it’s a Marantz product or anyone else’s.

The laser reads 1s and 0s, the pits and lands represent the binary info.