Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Pdxwayne]

Well I guess if you're happy with the results you got then all is well. However if you want to try and understand the cause for these results, or at least want to see if they are repeatable under controlled conditions, then it makes sense to try to limit the number of variables and also to try and eliminate any source of potential bias.
If you get consistent results no matter how much more difficult you try and make it for yourself, then you might be on to something

To an extent yes, indeed - we need to take care about certain technical aspects when putting various audio devices in the same system to get good performance.
E.g. we need to take care that the DAC output level matches input sensitivity of the headphone amp, and that the headphone amp output power is high enough, and output impedance low enough, for the headphones we wish to drive.
These days we have a lot of resources to help us estimate what might work well together - even before buying
And thankfully a lot of these devices also seem to be from the start designed in a way to make them quite universal (but not all are!).

The dac and amp and headphones combo I used are all recommended by Amir. In theory, those are supposed to work similar, no matter how one matches them. In theory.....

Yet, the differences in how easy to sense clues/tells between some combos are very obvious. Not only that, the type of clues are different too.

So, some foods for thought for you. Maybe you can try the timing tests with all sort of different combinations of listening chain and see you sense the differences like I did.

; )

Thanks and have a great day!

 

[voodooless]

Maybe you can try the timing tests with all sort of different combinations of listening chain and see you sense the differences like I did.

What would be the relevance of that? Any timing difference two DAC’s could have (unless seriously broken) is orders of magnitude smaller than that test would serve you.

 

[Pdxwayne]

What would be the relevance of that? Any timing difference two DAC’s could have (unless seriously broken) is orders of magnitude smaller than that test would serve you.

It is not just about the timing tests anymore. It is about “why“ the clues/tells are different between combos. “Why“ it is easer to sense the clues/tells for certain combos and not others.

Why transparent DAC and amp would not give same clues when combined differently?

Comparing transparent DAC based on DAC measurements alone seems not enough anymore in the conversation of audibility.

See my table for my results so far. How the clues are different between the combos:

DAC and amp combos did not give same clues when running online blind tests. Why? What would be the desired clue?

When running online blind timing tests yesterday, I heard different clues when using multiple combination of dac and amps. I wonder why. I thought, as long as I am using transparent DAC and amp, I can mix and match them and any combo will sound the same. But not this case. Is it okay? More...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Jimbob54]

What would be the relevance of that? Any timing difference two DAC’s could have (unless seriously broken) is orders of magnitude smaller than that test would serve you.

He means the test /thread he often links to with 2 drum strikes. Either synced or out of step by a varying amount of ms.

I'm not sure what the relevance is either

 

[Pdxwayne]

He means the test /thread he often links to with 2 drum strikes. Either synced or out of step by a varying amount of ms.

I'm not sure what the relevance is either

It is about drum and high hat.
: )

So you are not curious why a certain combos give you tonality change and a certain combos give you double hits clue?

 

[voodooless]

So you are not curious why a certain combos give you tonality change and a certain combos give you double hits?

Would be interesting to do this test totally blind and then see if you still get consistent results.

 

[Jimbob54]

It is about drum and high hat.
: )

So you are not curious why a certain combos give you tonality change and a certain combos give you double hits clue?

No. Because, as always, when you type "you" you mean @Pdxwayne

I've tried that online test and find it glitches the playback as often as it gives a "clean" signal and I ain't interested in trying to discern miniscule differences in "true" playback from a system that just gives a squelch as often.

I could get 5ms on some chains easy enough. I'm guessing after that.

 

[Pdxwayne]

No. Because, as always, when you type "you" you mean @Pdxwayne

I've tried that online test and find it glitches the playback as often as it gives a "clean" signal and I ain't interested in trying to discern miniscule differences in "true" playback from a system that just gives a squelch as often.

I could get 5ms on some chains easy enough. I'm guessing after that.

Nice. So chain makes a difference for you, it seems, right? Hopefully all started with transparent DAC and still get different results due to your chain?

 

[Pdxwayne]

Would be interesting to do this test totally blind and then see if you still get consistent results.

Haha, so you meant I should do a "blind" online "blind" test?

 

[voodooless]

Haha, so you meant I should do a "blind" online "blind" test?

Yes! You should not know what chain you are testing. Obviously for that at least the transducers should be the same. And there should be level matching.

 

[Jimbob54]

Nice. So chain makes a difference for you, it seems, right? Hopefully all started with transparent DAC and still get different results due to your chain?

That's quite a stretch of comprehension on your part. For this the chain doesn't start with the dac. It starts with the browser software on whatever device you're using.

Short samples via chrome (especially on my phone) seem to give dodgy playback. When I managed to get a decent run of 5ms samples I could pick it. When I got a run of clean plays at 2ms or 1ms I was guessing.

Using anything playing from a browser I would class as a dodgy source for very detailed listening or testing. Too many variables us simple users might not grasp

 

[Pdxwayne]

Yes! You should not know what chain you are testing. Obviously for that at least the transducers should be the same. And there should be level matching.

Like I mentioned before, level matching does not makes sense because I had to use various volume levels to find a clue for each combo.

It would be great if you can try it out using your different chains. Maybe you will know what I talked about.

; )

Thanks!

 

[Pdxwayne]

That's quite a stretch of comprehension on your part. For this the chain doesn't start with the dac. It starts with the browser software on whatever device you're using.

Short samples via chrome (especially on my phone) seem to give dodgy playback. When I managed to get a decent run of 5ms samples I could pick it. When I got a run of clean plays at 2ms or 1ms I was guessing.

Using anything playing from a browser I would class as a dodgy source for very detailed listening or testing. Too many variables us simple users might not grasp

With my phone speakers, the clues was tonality change. With headphones connected to phone jack out, the clues was double hits.

So tell me why the difference when source is the same?

Anyway, using phone is glichy for me too. Try using a computer as your source. Should be much more stable.

 

[Jimbob54]

With my phone speakers, the clues was tonality change. With headphones connected to phone jack out, the clues was double hits.

So tell me why the difference when source is the same?

Anyway, using phone is glichy for me too. Try using a computer as your source. Should be much more stable.

You've just magnificently explained why people sometimes struggle with your persistence.

You've asked us to explain why you have a different perception with 2 different phone based chains and in the next breath said phones are glitchy and to use a computer instead. You don't see a dichotomy there?

 

[Pdxwayne]

You've just magnificently explained why people sometimes struggle with your persistence.

You've asked us to explain why you have a different perception with 2 different phone based chains and in the next breath said phones are glitchy and to use a computer instead. You don't see a dichotomy there?

One can select an answer when it is not glitchy. Simple as that.

I wanted to save you time and anguish by suggesting using computer instead of using phone. No need to get so defensive.

 

[Jimbob54]

One can select an answer when it is not glitchy. Simple as that.

I wanted to save you time and anguish by suggesting using computer instead of using phone. No need to get so defensive.

You misunderstand me. I'm not interested in doing that test again.

I'm questioning why you or anyone else should be trying to make anymore from that test than what it was set up to do, which was test an individuals ability to discern two beats either synced or out of sync. Its not designed to be nor should it be used as the basis of testing differences in playback systems.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You misunderstand me. I'm not interested in doing that test again.

I'm questioning why you or anyone else should be trying to make anymore from that test than what it was set up to do, which was test an individuals ability to discern two beats either synced or out of sync. Its not designed to be nor should it be used as the basis of testing differences in playback systems.

Because it is a good test to show that
different combinations give different response, even when DAC in tests are all transparent.

 

[Music1969]

it is a metric for the relative audibility of distortion & noise.

Yes it is just one metric, of many - exactly's @Miska point

Full ACK.

1kHz SINAD at 0dBFS (or close to 0dBFS) is quite useless, like most any single one-dimensional scalar characteristic. It is only useful for a coarse pre-selection, if anything.

My hope is that at some point ASR addicts will finally notice that it is the low-level time-domain behavior of a DAC that is relevant, not the high level frequency domain behavior.

Agreed.

 

[Music1969]

I wish @amirm can start to include a noise floor modulation measurement.

Armir's best friend Rob Watts (Chord) claims his DACs are the only in the world without noise floor modulation.

His recent measurement for his new Mojo 2, Head-Fi link

I'd like to see how true his claim is.

@Miska how do you best measuring DACs perform with this simple measurement like below?

 

[flz]

I wish @amirm can start to include a noise floor modulation measurement.

Armim's friend Rob Watts (Chord) claims his DACs are the only in the world without noise floor modulation.

His recent measurement for his new Mojo 2, Head-Fi link

No doubt DACs in the future will have even better measurements than the best ones today. But I think many would agree that most people won't be able to hear the difference. But I guess that's not the point. Just like how the purpose of a luxury mechanical watch is not to tell time as accurately as possible.