NAD C 399 HybridDigital DAC Amplifier

[Kahana]

I haven't heard the C399 yet, but I could hear the M10 with the same amplifier/DAC technology compared to the C388. There are simply more details worked out.
What LSP do you want to drive on it?

More details worked out in the M10 or the C388? Assume the later?

 

[pogo]

More details worked out in the M10 or the C388? Assume the later?

My ranking of SQ:
1. M33 (I currently own)
2. M10 (I have tested)
3. C388 (I have owned)

These are C399 tests that I know:
Link
Link

 

[unexperienced]

Comparison NAD C399 (with MDC2) v Lyngdorf TDAI-1120

Disclaimers: My ears. My speakers. My subs. My room. My own idiosyncrasies and lack of ability, experience and brainpower where it may matter most. Had the 1120 on 2-week trial only. YMMV - this is my own opinion only based on my experience. Price - tie: almost identical £2,100 v £2,000, but...

www.avforums.com

 

[Jone5]

Has anyone addressed how it sounds compared to say M10 v2? Technically measures better, but it's also full-sized, so that may be a trade-off issue for some in addition to price and phono-input unless there is a clear discernible SQ/ noise floor difference.

Edit: Or just basic listening impressions! Inventories are still low to non-existant out there, how does it actually sound?

I did not make direct comparison, but I owned M10 v1 before C399 and would say that the C399 is a small sonic improvement. The mids and highs are more detailed and the soundstage is even more precise. In my opinion M10 had tad bit more silkiness in the mids and highs, which was pleasant to listen to, but I would say there is some more details in the sound with C399. I don't "hear" the added headroom in raw output power, but nice to know that there is some added reserve.

For example comparison linked by @unexperienced to TDAI-1120 is pretty similar to my sonic memory of TDAI-2170 (owned before M10), which started to sound harsh and undetailed at high volumes. I think the hypex modules are superior in this regard, they sound superb from start to finish.

I also noticed occasional harshness in C399, which might be due to the intersample distortion with sub out enabled. The distortion is apparent in some tracks, but might be underlying in some others where it is more masked by other content. I never noticed this with M10 so this might contribute to my assessment regarding mids and highs. I kinda hope that they fix the issue with the tone controls as with the M33, which was at least not the case at the moment.

 

[pogo]

I also noticed occasional harshness in C399, which might be due to the intersample distortion with sub out enabled.

It would be interesting to know if there are differences between an installed or uninstalled BluOS/DL module. Maybe you can isolate the cause of the distortion.

 

[Kahana]

Great insights!

 

[stemfencer]

I like the appeal of this unit and direction manufacturers are going, however I still don't see the proposition of this over a streamer (Bluesound node) + miniDSP Flex + Hypex Ncore based power amp. Perhaps form factor, few more inputs/features such as phono amp, hdmi in etc and dealer support? Anything else I'm missing.

 

[pogo]

I can think of unnecessarily long signal paths that also mean additional external connections/distortions. There is also a lot of discussion about the correct gain settings of separates. This should not be the case with this product, because already optimal per design.

 

[Jone5]

I like the appeal of this unit and direction manufacturers are going, however I still don't see the proposition of this over a streamer (Bluesound node) + miniDSP Flex + Hypex Ncore based power amp. Perhaps form factor, few more inputs/features such as phono amp, hdmi in etc and dealer support? Anything else I'm missing.

At least miniDSP Flex is very pricey in Europe, based on where I'm located list prices of separate devices are following:

Bluesound node n130 649e
miniDSP Flex 799e
Dirac lisence 200e
Minidsp umik-1 100e
Power amp based on nc252 500-700e

C399 list price here is 2599e with the bluos module so its pretty much the same, but I see the benefits of separate units (upgrading each part separately). This is assuming bying everything as brand new and also omitting interconnects.

 

[Deleted member 22141]

I'm on my 2nd C399 now and the issues I've had occurred on both.

The thump sound people are reporting looks like AC mains to me.

After running DL setup with 2.2 config.

1. Whenever a track starts streaming from Qobuz. Nevermind gapless playback, I'd settle for a lack of thump/pop to let you know when the next track starts streaming.

2. Depending on how the DL is run as to how bad the problem seems to be. 2x REL T5i subs. Set crossover on subs to max 120Hz and volume to 75%. The problem is very bad. Re-running DL setup with crossover set to 70Hz and volume to 50% the problem is much less apparent.

With DL on and sub X set to 70Hz in the BluOS app.

Streaming via Qobuz, Amazon, Spotify, Bluetooth - everything sounds very good.

Any of the other inputs (mostly I play my TV) : HDMI, Optical or Line in. Gives a thumping sound. It's as loud as dialog and would seem to me to be mains noise as it lasts 2/100s. Makes TV unwatchable. Turn DL off, subs still on and the problem goes away.

Problem does not occur with subs turned off and DL on (separate setup run just for 2-channel).

Here is from a 32s clip recorded from TV via HDMI in. Link to the sound clip hosted on Google Drive. I chose snooker as it has a nice quiet background with overlaid commentary. The only problem is that you can hear the clack of the balls when a shot is played, but it's clearly a different thing to this thump/pop noise.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_c4-7O_jmMOypsrkdJjslh5Pshrlpjhj/view?usp=sharing

I opened the recording in Composer. Dots placed where the thumps occur.

The knowledgeable members here would know better than I do, but 2/100s sine wave looks like 50Hz AC to me (I'm in the UK).

When it occurs at the same time as voice you can see the effect.

Quiet background.

Do I have very noisy mains? Not that I've ever noticed before. Certainly the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 that I had on 2 week trial didn't seem to think so, nor does my DDRC-24. No problems there. Nor indeed does the C399 seem to think so as long as I'm not using DL in 2.2 mode with external inputs to the amplifier.

With 3 other amplifiers (non-DSP) I've also never heard anything like it.

As I say, this has been evident with 2 units now.

Now I'm running with crossover in BluOS set to 50Hz and the thumping is barely or not noticeable on HDMI/Optical I chose 50Hz because the DL helps the speakers handle down to 50 very nicely in my room, and was hoping that with the crossover set to where the problem is it might mask it. And that seems to be the case.

Note that the actual sound quality from the DAC and Hypex amp really suits my speakers/subs/room combination incredibly well. It sounds really really good - significantly better than the Lyngdorf I trialled. The soundstage is quite spectacular, wide and deep and tall, it really seems like my whole front wall is a speaker or stage or concert hall. I've not owned anything higher end or more expensive but I recently demo'd some McIntosh, Linn and Naim amps at a dealer with much more expensive speakers and they did not sound as good as my current home system - though I expect that was mostly the demo room.

I'm thinking of doing one final speaker upgrade to something closer to full-range and getting rid of the subs, so I'm on the fence whether I should keep the C399 or not, in 2.0 with DL it sounds great.

I guess the main question is whether they will be able to fix this in software or not. If yes, then I can live with it until then. If not then I should probably get a refund and try something else.

Your thoughts appreciated.

 

[unexperienced]

I'm on my 2nd C399 now and the issues I've had occurred on both.

The thump sound people are reporting looks like AC mains to me.

After running DL setup with 2.2 config.

1. Whenever a track starts streaming from Qobuz. Nevermind gapless playback, I'd settle for a lack of thump/pop to let you know when the next track starts streaming.

2. Depending on how the DL is run as to how bad the problem seems to be. 2x REL T5i subs. Set crossover on subs to max 120Hz and volume to 75%. The problem is very bad. Re-running DL setup with crossover set to 70Hz and volume to 50% the problem is much less apparent.

With DL on and sub X set to 70Hz in the BluOS app.

Streaming via Qobuz, Amazon, Spotify, Bluetooth - everything sounds very good.

Any of the other inputs (mostly I play my TV) : HDMI, Optical or Line in. Gives a thumping sound. It's as loud as dialog and would seem to me to be mains noise as it lasts 2/100s. Makes TV unwatchable. Turn DL off, subs still on and the problem goes away.

Problem does not occur with subs turned off and DL on (separate setup run just for 2-channel).

Here is from a 32s clip recorded from TV via HDMI in. Link to the sound clip hosted on Google Drive. I chose snooker as it has a nice quiet background with overlaid commentary. The only problem is that you can hear the clack of the balls when a shot is played, but it's clearly a different thing to this thump/pop noise.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_c4-7O_jmMOypsrkdJjslh5Pshrlpjhj/view?usp=sharing

I opened the recording in Composer. Dots placed where the thumps occur.

View attachment 185551

View attachment 185555

The knowledgeable members here would know better than I do, but 2/100s sine wave looks like 50Hz AC to me (I'm in the UK).

When it occurs at the same time as voice you can see the effect.

View attachment 185557

Quiet background.

View attachment 185556

Do I have very noisy mains? Not that I've ever noticed before. Certainly the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 that I had on 2 week trial didn't seem to think so, nor does my DDRC-24. No problems there. Nor indeed does the C399 seem to think so as long as I'm not using DL in 2.2 mode with external inputs to the amplifier.

With 3 other amplifiers (non-DSP) I've also never heard anything like it.

As I say, this has been evident with 2 units now.

Now I'm running with crossover in BluOS set to 50Hz and the thumping is barely or not noticeable on HDMI/Optical I chose 50Hz because the DL helps the speakers handle down to 50 very nicely in my room, and was hoping that with the crossover set to where the problem is it might mask it. And that seems to be the case.

Note that the actual sound quality from the DAC and Hypex amp really suits my speakers/subs/room combination incredibly well. It sounds really really good - significantly better than the Lyngdorf I trialled. The soundstage is quite spectacular, wide and deep and tall, it really seems like my whole front wall is a speaker or stage or concert hall. I've not owned anything higher end or more expensive but I recently demo'd some McIntosh, Linn and Naim amps at a dealer with much more expensive speakers and they did not sound as good as my current home system - though I expect that was mostly the demo room.

I'm thinking of doing one final speaker upgrade to something closer to full-range and getting rid of the subs, so I'm on the fence whether I should keep the C399 or not, in 2.0 with DL it sounds great.

I guess the main question is whether they will be able to fix this in software or not. If yes, then I can live with it until then. If not then I should probably get a refund and try something else.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Hi! Can you show screenshots with the BluOS application pages of this new module In which audio settings are presented. This is not to test your words in any way. I am very interested in how it began to look. Since I have been using the BluOS module of the previous version for a very long time. You write that it is possible to configure the subwoofer and the main channel separately by frequencies, as it is done in C 399 ?

 

[Deleted member 22141]

Certainly - from the web interface.

The 3 DL configs were as described above. 2.2 & 2.0 & 2.2.

Believe me if this is a problem with me I would be delighted. I can usually be helped with detailed instructions punctuated by slaps to the head. Eventually I will learn. If it's a problem with the unit then no amount of headslaps will help.

 

[unexperienced]

Thank you. Oh no no, no checks. On the contrary, I have owned Lyngdorf 1120 since last autumn. While I bought it to replace the NAD M32, and for some time they were in my setup at the same time. That's why I'm very interested. NAD company stubbornly does not want to expand the adjustment possibilities for bi amping. They certainly sound different. But I can't tell which sound is worse or which is better. These are just different amplifiers, each with its own character and characteristics. But the possibilities for bi-amping settings with Lyngdorf, simply do not go to any comparison with the settings that NAD offers. So I sold this technique (I had NAD C390DD and M12+M22 too). And literally when I already sold all it's devices, NAD company announced NAD C399 with Dirac and DSP on BluOS D board, but nothing seems to have changed and the settings are still not as deep as in Lingdorf. Thanks again.

 

[Deleted member 22141]

Thank you. Oh no no, no checks. On the contrary, I have owned Lyngdorf 1120 since last autumn. While I bought it to replace the NAD M32, and for some time they were in my setup at the same time. That's why I'm very interested. NAD company stubbornly does not want to expand the adjustment possibilities for bi amping. They certainly sound different. But I can't tell which sound is worse or which is better. These are just different amplifiers, each with its own character and characteristics. But the possibilities for bi-amping settings with Lyngdorf, simply do not go to any comparison with the settings that NAD offers. So I sold this technique (I had NAD C390DD and M12+M22 too). And literally when I already sold all it's devices, NAD company announced NAD C399 with Dirac and DSP on BluOS D board, but nothing seems to have changed and the settings are still not as deep as in Lingdorf. Thanks again.

No I agree, the 1120 has a fully-fledged onboard DSP solution, the C399 most certainly does not.

For me unfortunately I found the 1120 to be a poor match for my speakers. RP completely borked the soundstage and it was not powerful enough to drive my speakers nicely. It wasn't what I expected at all so I was quite disappointed. The 399 sounds like it's in a completely different class with my speakers/subs/room.

 

[stemfencer]

No I agree, the 1120 has a fully-fledged onboard DSP solution, the C399 most certainly does not.

For me unfortunately I found the 1120 to be a poor match for my speakers. RP completely borked the soundstage and it was not powerful enough to drive my speakers nicely. It wasn't what I expected at all so I was quite disappointed. The 399 sounds like it's in a completely different class with my speakers/subs/room.

I've followed your journey on another forum as well, going from 1120 to 399. You mentioned were originally considered miniDSP SHD + 200W/C but was your Option #3 compared to the integrateds. Could you elaborate where you stand on this now and if were to do it over again would you look multiple component route?

 

[pogo]

Your thoughts appreciated.

Have you contacted NAD support?
They are always very quick to help.
I would also recommend using a BluOS app (PC/MAC/Android/IOS/Kindle): Link

 

[Jone5]

I'm on my 2nd C399 now and the issues I've had occurred on both.

The thump sound people are reporting looks like AC mains to me.

After running DL setup with 2.2 config.

1. Whenever a track starts streaming from Qobuz. Nevermind gapless playback, I'd settle for a lack of thump/pop to let you know when the next track starts streaming.

2. Depending on how the DL is run as to how bad the problem seems to be. 2x REL T5i subs. Set crossover on subs to max 120Hz and volume to 75%. The problem is very bad. Re-running DL setup with crossover set to 70Hz and volume to 50% the problem is much less apparent.

With DL on and sub X set to 70Hz in the BluOS app.

Streaming via Qobuz, Amazon, Spotify, Bluetooth - everything sounds very good.

Any of the other inputs (mostly I play my TV) : HDMI, Optical or Line in. Gives a thumping sound. It's as loud as dialog and would seem to me to be mains noise as it lasts 2/100s. Makes TV unwatchable. Turn DL off, subs still on and the problem goes away.

Problem does not occur with subs turned off and DL on (separate setup run just for 2-channel).

Here is from a 32s clip recorded from TV via HDMI in. Link to the sound clip hosted on Google Drive. I chose snooker as it has a nice quiet background with overlaid commentary. The only problem is that you can hear the clack of the balls when a shot is played, but it's clearly a different thing to this thump/pop noise.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_c4-7O_jmMOypsrkdJjslh5Pshrlpjhj/view?usp=sharing

I opened the recording in Composer. Dots placed where the thumps occur.

View attachment 185551

View attachment 185555

The knowledgeable members here would know better than I do, but 2/100s sine wave looks like 50Hz AC to me (I'm in the UK).

When it occurs at the same time as voice you can see the effect.

View attachment 185557

Quiet background.

View attachment 185556

Do I have very noisy mains? Not that I've ever noticed before. Certainly the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 that I had on 2 week trial didn't seem to think so, nor does my DDRC-24. No problems there. Nor indeed does the C399 seem to think so as long as I'm not using DL in 2.2 mode with external inputs to the amplifier.

With 3 other amplifiers (non-DSP) I've also never heard anything like it.

As I say, this has been evident with 2 units now.

Now I'm running with crossover in BluOS set to 50Hz and the thumping is barely or not noticeable on HDMI/Optical I chose 50Hz because the DL helps the speakers handle down to 50 very nicely in my room, and was hoping that with the crossover set to where the problem is it might mask it. And that seems to be the case.

Note that the actual sound quality from the DAC and Hypex amp really suits my speakers/subs/room combination incredibly well. It sounds really really good - significantly better than the Lyngdorf I trialled. The soundstage is quite spectacular, wide and deep and tall, it really seems like my whole front wall is a speaker or stage or concert hall. I've not owned anything higher end or more expensive but I recently demo'd some McIntosh, Linn and Naim amps at a dealer with much more expensive speakers and they did not sound as good as my current home system - though I expect that was mostly the demo room.

I'm thinking of doing one final speaker upgrade to something closer to full-range and getting rid of the subs, so I'm on the fence whether I should keep the C399 or not, in 2.0 with DL it sounds great.

I guess the main question is whether they will be able to fix this in software or not. If yes, then I can live with it until then. If not then I should probably get a refund and try something else.

Your thoughts appreciated.

I think I had the exact same problem when using analog input, I did not try digital inputs (toslink, coax or HDMI). The amp produced this occasional bump sound from subwoofer and for me the bumbs could occur repeatedly within time of 1-2 seconds and then pause for some time (10-15 sec). I did not yet investigate the cause since I don't use any other inputs than the bluos streaming and I'm also very happy with the amp how it sounds with 2ch and with streaming content. But if this is affeted in all other inputs this must be of course dealt by NAD.

I can certainly try again and see if I can isolate the issue, it seemed that the effect was amplified when the analog input was connected to my computer sound card (possibility of ground loop or something). Since it only occurs with subs enabled and on the sub output I guess its DSP related that might be fixed just with FW/SW update, but hard to say. Did you try it out with inputs that have nothing connected to them and toslink that does not cause galvanic connection with any other device?

I gues people have to complain to NAD about this in order to get their attention

 

[Deleted member 22141]

@pogo I have got a ticket open with NAD about this and the dealer has also been trying to progress it. Initially I'd hoped I just had a faulty unit.

I've not heard back from them yet, but they have not had it for very long, I presume they are investigating. I do use the BluOS apps on Android and PC - I especially like the PC version.

@Jone5 very interesting that you think have heard the same thing. Although the thumps in the clip above seem fairly regular it definitely seems to be random. I have certainly had it happen every second or two for a few seconds then silence for a while, then again.

I have heard it on Line In inputs too, both from my desktop DAC and also from my Allo Boss2 player.

@stemfencer
I'm not sure. I do quite like BluOS.
Even though I kinda hate Roon it may be an alternative I am forced into.
On the other hand the C298 & Bluesound Node price combined is within £100 of the C399 price. Maybe slot the DDRC24 in the middle? Or just use Roon for DSP with the C399 or the C298+Node (and maybe a preamp in the middle), of course I can't yet because the 399 is not certified and who knows how long that will take.

Or I could just ditch NAD altogether and go for something completely different. I live in the UK so might go Nord+miniDSP SHD, or just get a Roon certified integrated and use Roon for DSP. Would I rather have Volumio or Roon? Don't know, haven't tried Volumio I guess I should do that.

 

[pogo]

I do use the BluOS apps on Android and PC - I especially like the PC version.

But my screenshot looks different (if you are using a browser, not all functions are available)!?:

 

[Deleted member 22141]

All the controls are the same but in a slightly different arrangement. I'm sure the web interface and the PC/Android interface will be using the same Webservice API underneath.