ATC speakers / Monitors

[maverickronin]

Am I the only one who can barely "see" ATC's logo because of their silly optical illusion font?

Whenever I first look at it it always seems like Arabic or something for a second.

 

[honjr]

Have had the ATC SCM20psl Pro mkii for a few years now and they are simply superb. Non-fatiguing, see-through clarity, and they literally disappear when working with them. Handle high spl effortlessly, and work well even very close (within a few inches) to a back wall. However, I would only buy them if I got a good deal; otherwise too pricey. I got them at a very good price.

 

[honjr]

Have had the ATC SCM20psl Pro mkii for a few years now and they are simply superb. Non-fatiguing, see-through clarity, and they literally disappear when working with them. Handle high spl effortlessly, and work well even very close (within a few inches) to a back wall. However, I would only buy them if I got a good deal; otherwise too pricey. I got them at a very good price.

PS I toe in the 20psl’s so the perpendicular lines projected out from the centers of the baffles converge about 3ft behind my head; normally I have the tweeters slightly raised above my ears

 

[Chrise36]

Have had the ATC SCM20psl Pro mkii for a few years now and they are simply superb. Non-fatiguing, see-through clarity, and they literally disappear when working with them. Handle high spl effortlessly, and work well even very close (within a few inches) to a back wall. However, I would only buy them if I got a good deal; otherwise too pricey. I got them at a very good price.

Have you compared them to any of their 3ways?

 

[honjr]

Have you compared them to any of their 3ways?

No - those are too expensive for me, and too large for my studio (I compose and record), unfortunately. However, I also have the SCM12 passives, which are very good, but are not in the same league as the 20's. As many here are probably aware, the 11's and 19's are the "non-pro" versions of the 12's and 20's - but I've only heard the 12's and 20's.

The 20's do approach/approximate a 3-way design. Marketing says (you've probably already read this):

"The SCM20SL Passive low-frequency section is a hybrid design incorporating a 150mm bass cone with a grafted 75mm soft dome for mid-range assist. The woofer magnet assembly utilizes ATC's unique "SL" technology to greatly reduce third harmonic distortion and reveal mistakes and details. The tweeters are ATCs new dual suspension high powered tweeters. They do not use ferro fluid for cooling so will last a lifetime. A newly redesigned crossover ensures a smooth transition across all frequencies. All ATC drivers are manufactured in-house to exacting tolerances and are legendary for their many design innovations."

As an aside, in my experience, the 20's are better than the Neumann KH310's, even though they do not dig as deep. There's more vitality and clarity to the sound of the 20's, and they are of higher build quality. In some ways, they approach perfection. From what I've read, the active versions are generally considered to be better than the passives! But that's a lot of money there, and, I'm only relaying the opinions of mixing engineers, not of audiophiles.

 

[Freeway]

Funny thing happened.
I bought a new DAC. After rearranging equipment I fired it up. I think wow it is making the M105s really sing. I listen to a few tunes. I go wait a minute and actually put finger on the woofer and nothing. I had hooked up the ATC SCM7 v.3s by mistake.
The ATCs haven gotten much love the past year or so. They hanging off the wall tilted down hecka toed-in 3' 6" right above the Revels. Although I have reconnected the Revels a couple times, I have been only listening to the ATCs the last couple days. Lovely.

The 30 degrees is not about the toe-in, that's the angle of the speakers relative to your listening position which means you should place them with an equilateral triangle (same distance between the speakers as the distance from each speaker to the listening position).

I have my ATC SCM40's toed in so that the tweeters cross around 20 centimeters behind my head in the listening position. That's the toe-in I came up with when I fine-tuned the position, which I later discovered many others prefer as well.

This video with Ben Lilly from ATC has a lot of good information on room acoustics and speaker positioning:

It is interesting to note Ben Lilly in the video mentions two different set ups. One for fun listening and the one for pro monitoring.

What are your experiences with the ATC tweeter in terms of toe in? The Entry series manual suggests a 30 degree angle, which to me sounds like a lot and definitely more than I usually do. I'm well aware toe in depends on the room, personal preference etc. Just asking anyway.

For what it's worth, my listening position will be fairly close up (~125 cm) to the SCM11's, meaning I'm closer to the speakers than any adjacent walls.

When I really toed-in the ATCs about 30 degrees off the wall I found the sweet spot. I had always resisted trying that much of an angle. Wish I had done it way sooner. Try it, you might like it.
My listening distance is same as you.

 

[Chrise36]

No - those are too expensive for me, and too large for my studio (I compose and record), unfortunately. However, I also have the SCM12 passives, which are very good, but are not in the same league as the 20's. As many here are probably aware, the 11's and 19's are the "non-pro" versions of the 12's and 20's - but I've only heard the 12's and 20's.

The 20's do approach/approximate a 3-way design. Marketing says (you've probably already read this):

"The SCM20SL Passive low-frequency section is a hybrid design incorporating a 150mm bass cone with a grafted 75mm soft dome for mid-range assist. The woofer magnet assembly utilizes ATC's unique "SL" technology to greatly reduce third harmonic distortion and reveal mistakes and details. The tweeters are ATCs new dual suspension high powered tweeters. They do not use ferro fluid for cooling so will last a lifetime. A newly redesigned crossover ensures a smooth transition across all frequencies. All ATC drivers are manufactured in-house to exacting tolerances and are legendary for their many design innovations."

As an aside, in my experience, the 20's are better than the Neumann KH310's, even though they do not dig as deep. There's more vitality and clarity to the sound of the 20's, and they are of higher build quality. In some ways, they approach perfection. From what I've read, the active versions are generally considered to be better than the passives! But that's a lot of money there, and, I'm only relaying the opinions of mixing engineers, not of audiophiles.

You have to listen side by side the clarity of the 3way is much better. Or try a high pass to the 20s with a sub if you have one.

 

[Vintage Fahrenheit]

Am I the only one who can barely "see" ATC's logo because of their silly optical illusion font?

Whenever I first look at it it always seems like Arabic or something for a second.

Yes, always looks like Arabic to me at first before I "remember".

 

[Vintage Fahrenheit]

When I really toed-in the ATCs about 30 degrees off the wall I found the sweet spot. I had always resisted trying that much of an angle. Wish I had done it way sooner. Try it, you might like it.
My listening distance is same as you.

The illustration in the manual actually has the speakers facing at a 30 degree angle, and that's the reason I asked. But I also understand it may just as well be merely for illustration purposes instead of being an actual recommendation (because so much depends on the room etc.)

 

[Freeway]

The illustration in the manual actually has the speakers facing at a 30 degree angle, and that's the reason I asked. But I also understand it may just as well be merely for illustration purposes instead of being an actual recommendation (because so much depends on the room etc.)

I looked at the manual. Pretty standard set up. Equilibrium triangle. I misunderstood the 30 degree angle.
What I have is the speaker's plane of axis crossing in front of my head. Angle ZX and ZY is less than 60 degrees. My speakers are less than 45 degrees. The entry manual diagram is 60 degrees.
My trigonometry is not what it used to be or ever was.

 

[goat76]

The illustration in the manual actually has the speakers facing at a 30 degree angle, and that's the reason I asked. But I also understand it may just as well be merely for illustration purposes instead of being an actual recommendation (because so much depends on the room etc.)

As you say, it's just an illustration. ATC's manual doesn't go into too much depth about the speaker positioning and nothing particular about toe-in. But with that said, their loudspeakers usually are supposed to be listened to "on-axis" (or close to that). If you then follow their recommendation to set up the speakers with an equilateral triangle (30-degree listening window), that means the toe-in will also end up around 30 degrees, but you should of course fine-tune that to your liking and what will sound best in your room.

 

[Vintage Fahrenheit]

I finally got my SCM11's and played a bit with the toe in. I started with the "beam" pointing directly to the ear. The less I used toe in, the better they progressively started to sound (less smeared stereo image). Right now the "beams" converge about one metre behind my head. I'm hestitaing to use any less toe in, as it already feels like the speakers are blasting past me, so to speak...

I'm wondering if listening in near field has something to do with this? The sides of my listening triangle are just 120 cm each. I suppose the speakers are so close to each other that toe in more easily results in muddy imaging. I don't know - does it make any sense? I know I should just trust my ears, haha.

 

[Alastair]

I finally got my SCM11's and played a bit with the toe in. I started with the "beam" pointing directly to the ear. The less I used toe in, the better they progressively started to sound (less smeared stereo image). Right now the "beams" converge about one metre behind my head. I'm hestitaing to use any less toe in, as it already feels like the speakers are blasting past me, so to speak...

I'm wondering if listening in near field has something to do with this? The sides of my listening triangle are just 120 cm each. I suppose the speakers are so close to each other that toe in more easily results in muddy imaging. I don't know - does it make any sense? I know I should just trust my ears, haha.

I think there is good reason to trust your ears - the experience is ultimately likely only for your benefit and enjoyment!

Although running larger ATCs, at a distance of around 3m, I felt that toe in did make a difference to me. I used a specific test CD which has left and right panning, phase and other bits to help set up. It’s been really useful. Isotek set up CD. I don‘t otherwise use their products or any other of that nature.

Ive also tried the same test cd which a pair of old Meridian dsp actives, they benefited from no toe in at all, which felt counter intuitive but there you go. Very different speakers.

 

[Purité Audio]

With traditional tweeter implementation, angling the tweeters away ( firing straight) will reduce the amount of HF, particularly useful if the speakers have a rising treble response, although why would anyone purchase a speaker with a treble lift.
Keith

 

[Alastair]

With traditional tweeter implementation, angling the tweeters away ( firing straight) will reduce the amount of HF, particularly useful if the speakers have a rising treble response, although why would anyone purchase a speaker with a treble lift.
Keith

How would you know Keith, that you are purchasing a speaker with treble lift?

 

[Purité Audio]

From its measurements.

PMC fact.8 signature loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Keith

 

[Alastair]

From its measurements.

PMC fact.8 signature loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Keith

I guess my point is that not all measurements are available and often we (or certainly I historically) are driven by reviews without them.

 

[Purité Audio]

Without measurement you are at the mercy of the subjective review which mean absolutely nothing.
Keith

 

[Vintage Fahrenheit]

Well, I played with the positioning of the SCM11's and listening position a bit. It's a small room, so even 10 cm can make a difference!

Anyway, I widened the triangle from an equidistant 120 cm to 135 cm between spakers and 150 cm to listening position. A night and day difference. Vocals are no longer buried, a fair bit of toe in works really well now and the sub integrates nicely (I run the SCM11's full), without boom.

I believe the culprit to the muddy stereo image all along was bass boom and not the amount of toe in. The thing is, I didn't realize it from the REW sweeps - it was not so much the amplitude of bass but uneven reverb/decay, which resulted in some masking effect.

So glad I got these - money well spent, I'd say.

 

[tifune]

As an aside, in my experience, the 20's are better than the Neumann KH310's, even though they do not dig as deep. There's more vitality and clarity to the sound of the 20's, and they are of higher build quality. In some ways, they approach perfection.

Can you elaborate on this? Was looking into the 12's and 20's when I found this post. I've yet to see any speaker that seems like it could take a beating the way these anthracite builds could. Not that "blunt force impact" factors into my speaker buying decisions too much, but I have heard a few with poor bracing and it's quite distracting