Your loudspeakers are too small!

[DanielT]

Or it has no meaning whatsoever but sounds good. I remember Allen Wright always using the slogan "downward dynamic range," which was similarly more of a fortune cookie slogan than anything with actual meaning.

"downward dynamic range".. eh, that sounded as a waffle statement.

You who are a professional. Is this correct? Only distortion and FR (plus absolute phase) determine the sound of anything other than speakers / headphones. For speakers, dispersion is added.

And then this with when the sound leaves the speaker, the speakers / speaker elements and reaches the ears? (if not it can be expressed in deviations FR and distortion?

Ok, that's really a big question and needs several threads to sort out, I suspect, but still.

Edit
I've adding noise to the list.

 

[Digby]

It's an alert that there's nothing of worth involved.

Nothing of worth, so the entire thread is in vain?

Perhaps a better term is transient response, I'm not sure if that is what I'm after. Essentially a lifelike sound that sounds closer to the playing of, for example, an acoustic guitar - usually this is seen with larger, more efficient speakers, more so than smaller, less efficient ones. The smaller speaker has a flatter sound, although this isn't dynamic in testing the limits of volume swings. So yes, probably micro-dynamics is the wrong term.

What do you think, is transient response the term I'm looking for? You're the technical expert, so perhaps you know. Attempting to understand what a poster means and then correcting them is better than just sneering, no? If we all have to be perfect in both our language and understanding of these things before we can start a thread, then forum membership should be limited to 30 or so handpicked experts.

 

[DanielT]

Nothing of worth, so the entire thread is in vain?

Perhaps a better term is transient response, I'm not sure if that is what I'm after. Essentially a lifelike sound that sounds closer to the playing of, for example, an acoustic guitar - usually this is seen with larger, more efficient speakers, more so than smaller, less efficient ones. The smaller speaker has a flatter sound, although this isn't dynamic in testing the limits of volume swings. Yes, probably micro-dynamics is the wrong term.

So what do you think, is transient response the term I'm looking for? You're the technical expert, so perhaps you know. Attempting to understand and then correcting is better than just sneering, no? If we all have to be perfect in our language and understanding of these things before we can start a thread, then forum membership should be limited to 30 or so handpicked experts.

A small speaker element, a tweeter, is "faster" than a bass speaker element. It is as in the nature of things. They should reproduce different frequencies.

See post # 41 what determines the sound. Unless SIY has a different view of it all ..

Edit:
Then you can of course dress the actual experience of sound in different words but that is another matter.

 

[Digby]

Maybe it is, typically, the way that larger speakers move more air with less energy that adds this "dynamic" quality; they spend most of their time just idling along with lots in reserve, it seems a plausible explanation to me.

What do I know, I'm just a layman. I'm happy to be corrected (on terminology or technical matters), but would rather not be dismissed out of hand.

 

[ex audiophile]

I agree.

I went from 5 to 8, now I want 12.

Is that length or diameter?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

No they Aren't!


lol

 

[Chr1]

Is that length or diameter?

I agree.

I went from 5 to 8, now I want 12.

polygamy rocks

sorry

 

[DanielT]

.. that adds this "dynamic" quality...

Less of distortion.

But it is not possible to fully (or even a part to) generalize. There are good and bad drivers and speaker constructions. It can sound too damn bad even with a big fat driver.

 

[tecnogadget]

So no conclusion/solution, no verification of the issue (is it really an issue) and no objetive data/research of any kind.
We have found ourselves a new guru for this 2022. Congrats ! Now enjoy yourself watching the status quo burn in ashes...not really.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Maybe it is, typically, the way that larger speakers move more air with less energy that adds this "dynamic" quality; they spend most of their time just idling along with lots in reserve, it seems a plausible explanation to me.

Unfortunately, that's the case with most "sales talk" directed at the (no offense) layman person.
It is also what makes these false audio myths actually dangerous and why we so cling to our objective measurements.

From a technical PoV, all I know is that the larger speaker (not driver) may be more efficient (more volume at any given amp power) and be able to play louder with less distortion. Given that volume is absolutely crucial in our perception it may very well be that a larger speaker seems more dynamic, punchy and "effortless" to us. Especially in large rooms at greater distances, where small speakers struggle due to the raw volume requirement.

However large speakers can also have drawbacks: e.g.: cabinet resonances are much more difficult to control.

 

[Chr1]

Great explanation, I reckon.

(Heavy, braced cabinets help)

 

[DanielT]

So no conclusion/solution, no verification of the issue (is it really an issue) and no objetive data/research of any kind.
We have found ourselves a new guru for this 2022. Congrats ! Now enjoy yourself watching the status quo burn in ashes...not really.

Do you mean me? Well, see it mostly as questions. I'm not a professional. Just information, something I picked up. We'll see if SIY says anything.

What are the inaccuracies in what I say?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

You saying my 2" woofers are too small? Maybe I should go with 4".

 

[Digby]

Less of distortion.

Earl Geddes says that certain types of distortion doesn't matter too much (in that it cannot be heard in blind testing until quite high % levels) and he designed some pretty large speakers. He did an interview with Erin, I can't remember it all, but he did say something about small speakers FR changing as they heat up compared to larger ones.

Here is the interview:

So no conclusion/solution, no verification of the issue (is it really an issue) and no objetive data/research of any kind.
We have found ourselves a new guru for this 2022. Congrats ! Now enjoy yourself watching the status quo burn in ashes...not really.

Well, what have you added that is objective to the discussion?

Why is half this forum occupied with posters trying to BTFO people on the internet, aren't we all old and ugly enough to have moved beyond that kind of thing.

 

[DanielT]

.. until quite high % levels) ....

How high?

I can say quite low. Am I right or wrong when I say that?

 

[Digby]

Unfortunately, that's the case with most "sales talk" directed at the (no offense) layman person.
It is also what makes these false audio myths actually dangerous and why we so cling to our objective measurements.

From a technical PoV, all I know is that the larger speaker (not driver) may be more efficient (more volume at any given amp power) and be able to play louder with less distortion. Given that volume is absolutely crucial in our perception it may very well be that a larger speaker seems more dynamic, punchy and "effortless" to us. Especially in large rooms at greater distances, where small speakers struggle due to the raw volume requirement.

I'm not offended, but I think this is more than sales talk - there is a correlation between what people are hearing (subjective impressions aren't bunk purely because they are subjective) and what is going on with loudspeakers.

The thing is that larger speakers seem to be able to retain this sense of 'dynamic playback', even when the volume isn't particularly loud, which would mean that SPL capability can't be the only explanation.

I have no problem with measurements, but which measurements can tell us what this subjective impression is? I don't believe it is just some mass delusion, the subjective impression relates to something, something that should be measurable.

 

[mhardy6647]

Don't! Sulphur hexfluoride is the worst of all known climate killers.

Argon will (should) work satisfactorily, too.
Someone used an argon-filled enclosure at one point, methinks -- although a quick googlin' only is turnin' up bags of SF6 in loudspeakers.

I don't really know either what "micro-dynamics" means. The thing that comes to my mind when I hear that misleading expression is "detail" and "structure", but I'm probably totally wrong.

They're like macro-dynamics, but... you know... smaller.
It's OK, though. All of the cool kids have moved on to speaks with outstanding nano-dynamics.
And breakthrough designs to enhance pico-dynamics are comin' before the end of 2022.
Jaw-dropping.
Literally.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

there is a correlation between what people are hearing (subjective impressions aren't bunk purely because they are subjective) and what is going on with loudspeakers.

Experience tells us, that is often not the case. Human hearing just isn't that reliable and oftentimes we are influenced by other outside factors or/and our own expectations.

Unless you volume match the 2 speakers you are comparing with a multimeter to be within < 0.1 dB of each other, your perceptions may very well be caused by small volume differences.

To be mean: the sales person telling you that "bigger is more dynamic because more efficient" may be enough for you to perceive them this way, especially if the test is not done blind & volume matched.

 

[DanielT]

I'm not offended, but I think this is more than sales talk - there is a correlation between what people are hearing (subjective impressions aren't bunk purely because they are subjective) and what is going on with loudspeakers.

The thing is that larger speakers seem to be able to retain this sense of 'dynamic playback', even when the volume isn't particularly loud, which would mean that SPL capability can't be the only explanation.

I have no problem with measurements, but which measurements can tell us what this subjective impression is? I don't believe it is just some mass delusion, the subjective impression relates to something, something that should be measurable.

The beauty of Hifi, you can like anything. You might like this type of spread of sound. Others not.

You can like "tube sound" (possibly audible distortion). Others not.

I have a little both and depending on the mood. Tube amp sometimes, vinyl sometimes. A little (in my case a lot) coloring of the sound. Or I switch and plug in other gadgets for more linear amp amplification. So it depends. You do not have to worry or worry. You do what you want.

My tip. Test yourself and listen for a long time to the stuff you have. After a few months with, for example, two different speakers, you choose the ones you listen to the most.

Having said that, taking part in knowledgeable and experienced people sharing (I suck at it like a sponge) and conveys is incredibly valuable. That's exactly what helps me the most.

 

[mightycicadalord]

I don't think this forum is capable of understanding what OP is describing, which is weird, but this thread is full of people not quite getting it. Maybe they just don't hear the differences, but crediting the difference to simple listener preference isn't right.

It's not distortion, it's not SPL, it's not extension because you can match all of these between a larger and smaller speaker and it still sounds a lot different.