Topping D30Pro Review (Balanced DAC)

[tvrgeek]

I keep trying Foobar, but I have not figured out how to configure the UI to be more like Windows Media Player.
I like the icons, just drag them over in to a temporary list. I don't want the effort to make preset lists. I only know what mood I am in, not necessary what I want to hear until I look at it. Winamp has promise and Audionirvana has some nice features.

Now if WASAPI bypasses the windows drivers, does it allow EQ API? I am currently running that as it allows the variable Q I could not get off my JDS Objective. But I was thinking about the larger Schiit tone control so it could act on my CD player and feed for background music from the HT room.

I don't have access to a 12 year old who is a wizz at this stuff. Neighbor kids are more like 6.

Considering if I want tor run the Toping as the preamp, but I do not like volume in the digital domain as by definition it reduces resolution. I never listen @ 100%. But a analog volume, even if done on a chip, compresses the dynamic range does so we don't lose resolution until it drops below the threshold of hearing. So, probably keeping the Asgard as a pre. But I have a bin full of perfectly good ALPS pots and some resister switches so I could do a passive really easy and move the Schiit to my desk . Or buy a passive balanced pre and get a March amp, run diff. Leaning VIdar though. I want to understand more about current feedback vs voltage feedback and how it manages beta droop. Not as big an issue on MOSFET, but bi-polars do have that issue. I know from experience, the answer is not excessive feedback, as in Self. On the other hand, I am not convinced 5 W class A FETs are the answer either. Sorry Nelson.

I guess, is the volume control done in the digital domain or in the analog domain but in a chip?

BB King is sounding quite nice.

Are there any experts here in the Piedmont up for some lessons to an old fart? Plenty of cold ones in supply.

 

[Veri]

Now if WASAPI bypasses the windows drivers, does it allow EQ API?

Ah. No. Direct/exclusive mode disables such audio tweaks. So unless the player has EQ preset functionality built-in, you'd lose that in a trade off for "exclusive" sample rate control. Keeping global sound effects requires you to use DirectSound (the Windows default audio stack), which is the default output.
(you can use virtual audio cables to keep EQ on exclusive stack but that is hardly elegant, stable or recommended, so I would stick to my simplified answer )

 

[tvrgeek]

OK. So another vote for either different servers or the good old analog solution. I do need to take the highs down a little for an over-bright room, ad one broad dip in the lower mids were making the image recede a bit. The room is bad enough my brain can't do the eq itself.

Maybe someone local can help hands on. Things should not be this complicated. If you started it 15 years ago, then these details probably seem obvious and SOP, but I am an old school analog guy. Not that I can't understand, I am a retired computer scientist for crying out loud, but the industry has seriously failed the consumer. There is really no excuse for it to not be plug and play fully optimized in this day and age. My phone has more computing power than the entire support computers for Apollo!

There is no excuse for the instruction manual not to give expected differences in filter choices, not to give Windows, Apple. Linux specific setup guides, recommendations for applications etc. What good is a feature if you don't understand it? ( Following Amirm's advice, filter 2, default but will experiment. ) Now, I get that with LTSpice. They expect you to be an engineer and understand the difference between windowing algorithms. But that is a professional engineering CAD program. If you understand the function, then the GUI is intuitive. Not true in a consumer product. Logitech quit the TV remote products because of support costs. I offer that was their fault for a bad GUI and insufficient documentation. I bought an Nvidia streamer and had to go online to find out how to open the battery tray! Inexcusable.

I still think Mongo DB would be a killer engine for a music server. Documents.
Tracks are paragraphs. Skins a paragraph, metadata a paragraph. Relational constructs on the metadata indexed.
I could describe music in an RDF as well but I think documents are better. As far as I can tell, music servers are simpler indexed pointers. A music server does not need to be ACID.

 

[Veri]

There is no excuse for the instruction manual not to give expected differences in filter choices

Filters are mostly a mathematical choice, 99(point nine?) percent of people won't hear an extra steep passband or a subtle difference in phase. So trying to describe what "each" should/would do is rather pointless. The only ones that can be audible are filters which roll off the high frequency content such as the Slow variants.

But devices that open up all these options are pandering to the "audiophile" crowd. Not to mention marketing. I'd be totally OK with consumer grade devices that just pick one of the available on-chip programmed filters and be done with it.

 

[tvrgeek]

I should look closely at the slow variants. I am a fan of "be nice to tweeters"
The display on the Topping is helpful in this early stage to understand the mess in drivers and servers. Eventually, it will be in a cabinet with the display dim. It should "just work". But if they provide the option, they should describe it.

 

[tvrgeek]

Yea, still way to brash. Doing some Billy Joel. I'll get on the bench and do the old amp up tomorrow.

 

[Rottmannash]

Yea, still way to brash. Doing some Billy Joel. I'll get on the bench and do the old amp up tomorrow. Audirvana is a good option, which allows most everything you desire but not cheap. I use it and it integrates my local files and Qubuz.

 

[tvrgeek]

I was about to test, but a bit scared. I use a sequencer to turn all my stuff on and off via a USP trigger. So the DAC gets powered off. Right now, it is in DAC mode, but I wanted to test it in preamp mode to see if the onboard volume was tolerable and I could pull the Asgard out of the loop. But I think I saw a comment about it coming on full volume. That would blow the speakers instantly. Of course, I'll test with the Asgard in circuit, but did I read this wrong?

I have not yet got the UI on Audirvana ( Or Foobar, or Winamp) to my likening. Cost is not a big deal, usability is. I like the Windows Media Player where you just drag skins into a current play list.

Did one more fine tuning pass in LTSpice on the MOSFET. Waiting on some copper clad. Tweaked a tiny bit more phase margin, rebalanced between IPS local and global feedback. I hope it is the missing link. I did see a Nak P5 used for sale. I remember the Aragon, but darn they bring big money for a 20 year old amp. So do Threshold, Theda, Sumo, and any others I remember.

What a pretty dog. I have known a couple rotties that were just big love bugs. Only dangerous when they jumped into your lap and licked you with that wet rasp.

 

[Rottmannash]

I was about to test, but a bit scared. I use a sequencer to turn all my stuff on and off via a USP trigger. So the DAC gets powered off. Right now, it is in DAC mode, but I wanted to test it in preamp mode to see if the onboard volume was tolerable and I could pull the Asgard out of the loop. But I think I saw a comment about it coming on full volume. That would blow the speakers instantly. Of course, I'll test with the Asgard in circuit, but did I read this wrong?

I have not yet got the UI on Audirvana ( Or Foobar, or Winamp) to my likening. Cost is not a big deal, usability is. I like the Windows Media Player where you just drag skins into a current play list.

Did one more fine tuning pass in LTSpice on the MOSFET. Waiting on some copper clad. Tweaked a tiny bit more phase margin, rebalanced between IPS local and global feedback. I hope it is the missing link. I did see a Nak P5 used for sale. I remember the Aragon, but darn they bring big money for a 20 year old amp. So do Threshold, Theda, Sumo, and any others I remember.

What a pretty dog. I have known a couple rotties that were just big love bugs. Only dangerous when they jumped into your lap and licked you with that wet rasp.

Thanks-he was a rescue from the "Great Flood" here in Nashville many years ago, hence named "Noah". Sweet creature, as all of my Rotties were. I've tried several of the players but Audirvana is my favorite, as I stream most of my music and Foobar can't stream, nor can many of the other free ones. It's not without its quirks and at times it won't even let me log into my Qobuz account but for now that's solved. I use a VPN and that causes problems at times with Audirvana. Good luck with whatever solution you decide on.

 

[Greg P]

..............

So the D30 Pro may have great specs, but it may not work with your CD player.

Given the above response I think the ASR 'recommended' rating for this Topping DAC should be reconsidered.

Exactly.

 

[Greg P]

The D30 Pro is a nice DAC, but it does not accept digital in from my CD players and CD transport (Audiolab CDT6000) without skipping. These all work perfectly with my other DACs.

I understand your point but why should we expect the D70S to work properly in this situation when Topping claims that this is all the CD players' fault?

 

[tvrgeek]

A lot more listening. Pulled the Asgard out and trying the Topping volume. I am not sure if I hear a difference. Going to live with it a while as it is the least of my problems. Between the two, I do hear the tiniest of detail difference. I am confident enough to give the Topping an edge. But not solving the harshness yet. It is the same as my Schiit in that regard.

Curious, I got some skipping on a couple of tracks. I thought it was the file or Windows doing something in the background, but now not sure. I have never had that before. Going to test more today. I verified I had about everything off in the PC and I don't even connect to the WEB except every month or so for updates. Never skipped with the Muse or Schiit.

Many of my CDs were probably probably recorded with emphasis as they are older. Sure I can set a de-emphasis curve, or the Walker curve ( I am not far from that now) but is there any way to know , like did they put any metadata on the CD, to tell us if it was or not? Have I lost that information when ripping onto my server? How did older CD players handle that?

 

[tvrgeek]

I think I am on to something here. When ripping, (I use EAC) one has to look at the metadata and do a que sheet. So the root of my harshness problem may be the three weeks work to rip my library! Searching for threads on that. Seems contradictory information out there. As usual.
A quick test wil be to play a couple CD's through my OPPO analog and compare to off the computer ripped, and of the player digital to the DAC.

 

[tvrgeek]

Trying to make sure the dropouts and stutter were not the PC, though my other two DACs never did it.
I verified, my power management is on high performance
About half the services are turned off
Only running Defender
Killed all the automatic updates, scans and other nonsense
As I have no option in the power scheme for USB suspend, I gather from the Microsoft help that feature is not enabled, so it can't be hurting.

Feeding off a USB SSD, so I do not believe any latency issues.

 

[tvrgeek]

Any experiences with burn in time on this unit? It seems to be changing a little.
When I had the dropout, it was sitting on top of my Asgard, so it might have been getting a little more heat. It was off to the side not over the vents, but the little Schiit does run hot. I really want this thing to work even if I may sound a bit contrary.

 

[tvrgeek]

It is what QA is for, to test the unit which they send to the end user for money I usually form my observations for companies based on my experience. I have my doubt if to wait for new unit and if QA even exist, could be again defective you know if my first experience with the company is a defective product.

There many ways to approach QA. Testing is only one. Process control is the preferred method. You need to consider the complexity of testing and what it would cost. If you think you are going to get comprehensive EOL testing in a $350 unit, you need to re-evaluate your expectations. Maybe you can expect that in a $3500 DAC, which is just a $100 one is a fancy box with more advertising.

So the real mark of a company is what they do if you do get a bad one. My previous experience with Topping was not great.

 

[MaxBuck]

Any experiences with burn in time on this unit?

Yes. There is none.

 

[Veri]

Any experiences with burn in time on this unit? It seems to be changing a little.

It's generally accepted here electronics do not have "burn in time". With headphones, it's usually the earpads that soften a little after use which can have, sometimes obvious, acoustic effects. There is no such logical explanation for people claiming similar "obvious" effects for electronics.

 

[tvrgeek]

Generally accepted I believe to be wrong. Yes there is a good explanation. Film caps go through "forming" which has been documented showing the differences in distortion. Big differences in electrolytic caps, but if in the power supply, it is not likely to be audible. It has been suggested that the solvents used in cleaning boards has a temporary effect on exposed SMT resistors and caps that burns off with a few heat cycles. All of this follows the laws of physics requiring no magic snake lubrications.
No question, the Topping got a little better after a couple of days. My Parasound amp took several weeks for some of the edge to come off.

My biggest problem, I put in another thread, is when running the Topping driver, it bypasses EQ APO, making it unlistenable. I need something closer to the Peter Walker curve. Pretty bright room, pretty flat speakers.

It stuttered again. Third time. Went through all the recommended setup for Windows again and everything was already correct. I am sure it is running too many processes, but being Windows, I don't know what to stop. Unix I could. I had a DNS server running only 2 processes! Kernel, memory, disk are all in the 10% range.

 

[tvrgeek]

Found two threads on this. Could not searching here, but GOOGLE brought me back.

So the question is reduced. If removing the Topping driver and using the windows stack, what capabilities do I lose?
If I add Voicementer in the chain and can run ASIO, what features do I get, aside form any argument on quality.

Gad, how does a mere mortal figure any of this out?