Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[dc655321]

Are they subsidizing bicycles, walking to work, mopeds, busses electric & otherwise, trains

Yes, of course. At least where I live...
That's how large scale, societal change is incentivized.
It's not nefarious...

 

[j_j]

. The government (any government) should not be subsidizing EV's. Are they subsidizing bicycles, walking to work, mopeds, busses electric & otherwise, trains (many are diesel electric hybrid or electric, etc

1) Yes, they are subsidizing and promoting mass transic.
2) Yes, the government should subsidize EV's since like everyone else, the government has a stake in keeping the planet earth habitable.
3) Do you have *****any***** idea just how much the oil companies are subsidized? How about you get on that?

 

[rkbates]

Effectively taxes paid by others (whether they own an ev, charging station. both or walk or ride a bicycle [or even prefer a petrol vehicle]) pays for the charging stations that others want because they bought EV's that they want to charge. That is just wrong on so many levels. Generally governments can't operate without fund from the people & the usual method is taxation. But to then give tax money (in the form of a rebate) to help people who are not destitute & starving (because they want to charge an EV) is no different than if the government paid peoples gas bill for their ICE car with the peoples tax money. I suspect that some would call that theft & mis-use of funds. It is the same no matter which side you are on. Although those that receive the rebate (paid by received taxes from the government rarely think so)If you want EV's & charging stations, by all means you should be able to have them. But they should not be paid for by people who have legitimately given their tax money to the government to help it run & take care of the people (medical, mental health, food for poor families, etc), things that have a direct effect on quality of life. The government (any government) should not be subsidizing EV's. Are they subsidizing bicycles, walking to work, mopeds, busses electric & otherwise, trains (many are diesel electric hybrid or electric, etc (all those things would help & some of them are also the so called ZERO EMISIONS (true only at the point of use unless all power for the EV is made by solar, wind or water & there is an environmental cast their, as well as in order to produce the EV vehicles & chargers.). If that is within the contract of the government, then I would say they are helping the people. But, in singling out an industry to subsidize. I smell high potential for corruption (by bureaucrats & legislators investing in things that they say everyone must have).

I'm a bit left leaning, so may not reflect the views of the majority. There is only one source of funding at the end of the day ie the punter. This is either direct (as a paying user) or indirect (as a taxpayer). I'd rather my subsidies go to sustainable society benefitting stuff (ie zero emissions) rather than environmentally unsustainable endeavors (ie coal, gas etc) that make a few people very rich

 

[EJ3]

I'm a bit left leaning, so may not reflect the views of the majority. There is only one source of funding at the end of the day ie the punter. This is either direct (as a paying user) or indirect (as a taxpayer). I'd rather my subsidies go to sustainable society benefitting stuff (ie zero emissions) rather than environmentally unsustainable endeavors (ie coal, gas etc) that make a few people very rich

Well, I guess I'm a mix of left & right. I believe that we should help those that are down on their luck (both as in I donate time, money, clothing, etc) and I believe that their should be government services (paid by our taxes) that help with mental health, medical health, job training & obtaining jobs, pre-natal & natal.
But I don't believe the government should use tax money to subsidize things like coal, gas, EV's, Solar, wind power, etc that make a few people very rich. If there is a demand for a product, let the people who have the money buy it. But don't use the tax $ of everyman to help those wealthy enough to get it on their own to get it.

 

[JJB70]

To be honest, even as an EV advocate and being a bit of an environmental type I do have some unease at subsidizing expensive cars which will be bought by people quite able to buy them without subsidies. Personally I'm not sure about subsidizing cars in any form (I think it would be better to direct the money into zero tail-pipe emission public transport, making it safer to cycle and walk etc) but if we are to do so then subsidies should be directed at the 'affordable' end of the spectrum (yes, I know 'affordable' can mean anything, a personal 747-800 is affordable for Elon Musk) as there are very good lower cost EVs like the Renault Zoe, MG 5, MG ZS, the smaller battery Hyundai Kona and Ioniq etc.

 

[EJ3]

Personally I'm not sure about subsidizing cars in any form (I think it would be better to direct the money into zero tail-pipe emission public transport, making it safer to cycle and walk etc).

Although i am not on any bus routes because I live on land that is on deep water, in an individual house that is owned by me (as do those in my area) I am happy with this part and would likely use that public transport when I go to the city. Driving and parking in the city is a pain. Because of that, I don't go to the city often. If they had good, clean (both inside and emissions, I would go much more often (perhaps 2 times a month, rather than 1 time a year).

 

[EJ3]

1) Yes, they are subsidizing and promoting mass transic.
2) Yes, the government should subsidize EV's since like everyone else, the government has a stake in keeping the planet earth habitable.
3) Do you have *****any***** idea just how much the oil companies are subsidized? How about you get on that?

I guess I was just thinking about individual vehicles for a family of, say 4. Of course, mass transit should be subsidized.

 

[samsa]

The thing is both you and I don’t know if Motorway fast charging is cheaper or dearer? Know if I had an EV and stopped for a Motorway break, if it was possible to put my EV on charge if it had less than 50% capacity then for peace of mind might put it on charge. You live in an ideal world I live in the real world.

I think you are in fantasy land frankly. You've been trying every way you can to make it look like EV charging is impractical and too expensive. The only indicators one can find are that fast charging in the UK is not much more expensive than anywhere else and definitely cheaper than ICE fuel costs. Your gov't has plans to expand greatly the charging points on all major motorways which isn't surprising.

A Better Route Planner doesn't work in Fantasy Land (where @Suffolkhifinut resides). But it does work in the UK.

So let's plug in Southhampton → Glasgow in a 2022 Tesla Model Y LR:

• 427 Miles.
• 315 Whr/mi average consumption.
• 7hr10min (6hr35 min driving + 35min charging).
• 33.6€ total charging cost.

FWIW, we can also plug in @j_j's Seattle → Gardiner MT route, with the same parameters

• 756 miles.
• 337 Whr/mi average consumption.
• 12 hr 47 min (11hr6min driving + 1hr40min charging).
• 39.1€ total charging cost

(The above ABRP routes assume that you start with a 90% SoC and end with a 10% SoC; Obviously, you would have to do things slightly differently if you are unable to charge at your destination. But it does give a fairly accurate idea of what charging costs would be: more expensive in the UK than in the US, but still significantly cheaper than petrol. Alas, I have no idea what charging costs are in Fantasy Land, but I gather they are very expensive.)

 

[samsa]

On the topic of EV charging in Yellowstone National Park (the subject of the discussion with @j_j), the National Park Service lists quite a number of (free!) level-2 chargers both in and adjacent to the park (see also this list). Take advantage now, while all of that infrastructure is still free.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I think you are in fantasy land frankly. You've been trying every way you can to make it look like EV charging is impractical and too expensive. The only indicators one can find are that fast charging in the UK is not much more expensive than anywhere else and definitely cheaper than ICE fuel costs. Your gov't has plans to expand greatly the charging points on all major motorways which isn't surprising.

If you don't like an EV that is fine, they certainly don't meet everyone's needs. Fuel cost being more in an EV certainly is one of the weakest reasons as it isn't true. EV use is marginally friendly enough that with a little planning and change of habits it is feasible for many. It will be increasingly so as time goes by. In the USA where distances traveled are greater than many places, lots of people I know rent a vehicle for vacations or long trips if they aren't frequent travelers. Such people can use EVs with little downside.

My main complaint is up front costs, and lack of 2nd hand options. The latter will clear up in time.

Got to say think the same thing about you and I don’t dislike EVs although if you are a city dweller they are not the answer. Too many high rise dwellings making practical charging solutions impossible. In urban areas they would clean up the air and make for healthier breathing conditions. They will do absolutely nothing to improve congestion. Electric bikes and motor bikes are much better cleaner air, less congestion meaning shorter journey times. Also less demand on the electricity supply network, they are the future for journeys in congested urban locations.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

A Better Route Planner doesn't work in Fantasy Land (where @Suffolkhifinut resides). But it does work in the UK.

So let's plug in Southhampton → Glasgow in a 2022 Tesla Model Y LR:

• 427 Miles.
• 315 Whr/mi average consumption.
• 7hr10min (6hr35 min driving + 35min charging).
• 33.6€ total charging cost.

FWIW, we can also plug in @j_j's Seattle → Gardiner MT route, with the same parameters

• 756 miles.
• 337 Whr/mi average consumption.
• 12 hr 47 min (11hr6min driving + 1hr40min charging).
• 39.1€ total charging cost

(The above ABRP routes assume that you start with a 90% SoC and end with a 10% SoC; Obviously, you would have to do things slightly differently if you are unable to charge at your destination. But it does give a fairly accurate idea of what charging costs would be: more expensive in the UK than in the US, but still significantly cheaper than petrol. Alas, I have no idea what charging costs are in Fantasy Land, but I gather they are very expensive.)

Hope you aren‘t claiming the two distances for the Tesla model Y are on a single charge? Looking into it the real world the maximum range is 270 miles, that’s on a full charge. Think many of you make these claims to justify spending so much on a car, Tesla’s charging costs are very reasonable for now. They like the rest won’t be able to do anything about rising energy costs and will have to pass them on. Admittedly EVs will always have an advantage when it comes to refuelling costs. However over here the model Y costs over £53k, you could buy a Toyota hybrid for half that, better built and with low emissions.

 

[Laserjock]

What portion of charging cost goes to tax for roads etc? (US)

 

[samsa]

Hope you aren‘t claiming the two distances for the Tesla model Y are on a single charge?

Read the post again, and click on the links (those little underlined things, colored in brown).

There were 3 charging stops on the Southhampton→Glasgow route (total charging time = 35 minutes as is clearly stated in the post) and 5 charging stops on the Seattle→Gardiner MT route (total charging time 1hr40min as also stated in the post)

Looking into it the real world the maximum range is 270 miles, that’s on a full charge.

Wrong.

Think many of you make these claims to justify spending so much on a car,

Not I. Not once.

Tesla’s charging costs are very reasonable for now.

Oh. Really? So you finally admit that fast-charging on the Motorway is not more expensive than petrol? That's progress ...

They like the rest won’t be able to do anything about rising energy costs and will have to pass them on.

As will your petrol station.

Admittedly EVs will always have an advantage when it comes to refuelling costs.

Thanks, again, for finally admitting the obvious.

However over here the model Y costs over £53k, you could buy a Toyota hybrid for half that, better built and with low emissions.

Over here, in the 15 months since I bought mine, the price of the Model Y has gone up by $13k. And the price of used Model Ys is currently higher than the retail price of new ones. So, were I willing to part with mine, I could make a handsome little profit.

The fact that I'm not might tell you something.

Or not ...

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Read the post again, and click on the links (those little underlined things, colored in brown).

There were 3 charging stops on the Southhampton→Glasgow route (total charging time = 35 minutes as is clearly stated in the post) and 5 charging stops on the Seattle→Gardiner MT route (total charging time 1hr40min as also stated in the post)




Wrong.


Not I. Not once.



Oh. Really? So you finally admit that fast-charging on the Motorway is not more expensive than petrol? That's progress ...



As will your petrol station.



Thanks, again, for finally admitting the obvious.



Over here, in the 15 months since I bought mine, the price of the Model Y has gone up by $13k. And the price of used Model Ys is currently higher than the retail price of new ones. So, were I willing to part with mine, I could make a handsome little profit.

The fact that I'm not might tell you something.

Or not ...

Same with all used car values, was shocked the other day checking on the price of 1 year old BMW 4 series Gran coupe like mine. It would cost me an extra £17.5 K over what I paid for mine two years ago. Please read my posts it’s like blasphemy questioning the (self) righteous. Give me one quote where I’ve said EVs cost more to refuel, if you can access charging stations when needed. Again can only comment on the UK situation and until the charging network is expanded massively then charging when you find somewhere is expedient. It might mean the cost advantage is less than you think!
Two examples of the annoyance factor, Pease Pottage services on the M23, every time I stopped there a Nissan Micro was parked in a charging bay. A hotel we go to regularly in the Cotswolds the sole charging bay has a BMW i3 parked in it, not plugged in. These are the factors influencing my decision not to buy an EV, insufficient charging stations and the prats’ who leave their cars in charging bays when not using them.

 

[samsa]

Give me one quote where I’ve said EVs cost more to refuel, if you can access charging stations when needed.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cs-regarding-the-subsidies.28056/post-1211725
From what I’ve read fast charging points cost over £40 for a charge to get the battery up to 80%.

On your first point Channel 4 showed a documentary hosted by Guy Martin he drove from the English Midlands to the north of Scotland in an Hyundai EV. The problems he faced were charging stations that didn’t work, poor mobile phone connectivity and a cost of around £50 to charge his vehicle to 80% think it was on a BP network. The same reports are common over here when journalists carry out tests on EVs.

The thing is both you and I don’t know if Motorway fast charging is cheaper or dearer?

Two examples of the annoyance factor, Pease Pottage services on the M23, every time I stopped there a Nissan Micro was parked in a charging bay. A hotel we go to regularly in the Cotswolds the sole charging bay has a BMW i3 parked in it, not plugged in. These are the factors influencing my decision not to buy an EV, insufficient charging stations and the prats’ who leave their cars in charging bays when not using them.

Maybe one of these signs would help.

 

[Doodski]

Lightyear launches solar electric car and says it can theoretically drive for up to seven months without plugging into an outlet. It has solar cells on top.

Lightyear — Solar Electric Vehicle

Lightyear Zero is a Long-Range Solar Car Designed & Engineered by Lightyear in The Netherlands. Designed for Independence.

lightyear.one

 

[Head_Unit]

Effectively taxes paid by others (whether they own an ev, charging station. both or walk or ride a bicycle [or even prefer a petrol vehicle]) pays for the charging stations that others want because they bought EV's that they want to charge. That is just wrong on so many levels. Generally governments can't operate without fund from the people & the usual method is taxation. But to then give tax money (in the form of a rebate) to help people who are not destitute & starving (because they want to charge an EV) is no different than if the government paid peoples gas bill for their ICE car with the peoples tax money. I suspect that some would call that theft & mis-use of funds. It is the same no matter which side you are on. Although those that receive the rebate (paid by received taxes from the government rarely think so)If you want EV's & charging stations, by all means you should be able to have them. But they should not be paid for by people who have legitimately given their tax money to the government to help it run & take care of the people (medical, mental health, food for poor families, etc), things that have a direct effect on quality of life. The government (any government) should not be subsidizing EV's. Are they subsidizing bicycles, walking to work, mopeds, busses electric & otherwise, trains (many are diesel electric hybrid or electric, etc (all those things would help & some of them are also the so called ZERO EMISIONS (true only at the point of use unless all power for the EV is made by solar, wind or water & there is an environmental cast their, as well as in order to produce the EV vehicles & chargers.). If that is within the contract of the government, then I would say they are helping the people. But, in singling out an industry to subsidize. I smell high potential for corruption (by bureaucrats & legislators investing in things that they say everyone must have).

The governmentsingles out many industries to subsidize, tobacco coming disgustingly to the forefront of my mind. Giant agribusiness subsidies, lots of stuff that is cr@p. COAL is subsidized! Ah, the governments do pretty much subsidize buses and trains; I'm not aware of any of those systems truly making a profit consistently over time (??). Bicycles and walking don't get a fair shake because OIL IS SUBSIDIZED AS HELL people. With street and road and highway departments. With parking requirements. With lack of recycling requirements for end-of-life vehicles (true for EVs also). With the oil industries offloading their negative costs from all manners of pollution onto the public. https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil...ural gas,from the International Monetary Fund.
(Not that I'm an IMF fan at all). The government also does many many MANY things besides taking care of people, they do precious little of that in my view.

Is the public paying for charging stations? Ah maybe? I'd like to hear specific examples...my specific example is So Cal Edison gave a rebate to my friend's neighbor to put in his EV charger. Not exactly a government rebate though kind of in a very indirect way. Los Angeles Unified School District put in charging stations in many parking lots which now have solar panel roofs. Subsidized? Unclear. They are ChargePoint and not free. There's "SCAQMD Residential EV Charging Incentive Pilot Program" which gives $250. As far as I know the chargers put it at Ralphs or whatever are run by businesses. Is there a specific tax incentive attached?

I take a different viewpoint: any "subsidies" on electric cars (including carpool lane access) are to stimulate a necessary market that won't get past startup friction by itself. And is a counter-subsidy to those still driving around (like me) in pollution-puking internal combustion engines, especially large gas thirsty ones and old ones which don't operate so cleanly any more. By the way since EVs are more expensive, they get charged MORE in registration fees at least here in Cali.

 

[Head_Unit]

Lightyear launches solar electric car and says it can theoretically drive for up to seven months without plugging into an outlet. It has solar cells on top.

Lightyear — Solar Electric Vehicle

Lightyear Zero is a Long-Range Solar Car Designed & Engineered by Lightyear in The Netherlands. Designed for Independence.

lightyear.one

Cool! You can use that to drive to some land in Florida I'll be glad to sell you! And I can get you a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge, by the way...

 

[Doodski]

Cool! You can use that to drive to some land in Florida I'll be glad to sell you! And I can get you a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge, by the way...

Lol... it is a bit dreamy but with the 70km / day charge rate it might be possible under perfect conditions.

 

[j_j]

On the topic of EV charging in Yellowstone National Park (the subject of the discussion with @j_j), the National Park Service lists quite a number of (free!) level-2 chargers both in and adjacent to the park (see also this list). Take advantage now, while all of that infrastructure is still free.

That's a step up. I guess they finally got the new feeder into Gardiner (last time I was there they were upgrading the lines from Livingston to higher voltage (the upgrade was to, I think, 235kv, which is not high by modern standards but was going to quadruple the power available, so that takes care of Gardiner and Mammoth.

I am somewhat amazed that they got the Canyon and Old Faithful units in, simply because the demand was, at least a while ago, for buried cable, and for both of those, it means "buried cable in the middle of thermal areas" which has, you may not be surprised to hear, "somewhat difficult".

In West Yellowstone, that's the one place that I'm not as surprised. It's at the end of a road, so to speak, but there's much more around it than there is around Gardiner. (which is why like Gardiner, btw, but that's not germane here.)

I have to say that when the infrastructure matures, there will be very little need for gas personal vehicles. That's why I said the other day that the next car will be gas, but it will be the last one, I suspect. If I have to replace our city car for some reason, yes, it will be plug-in. Nothing else makes any conceivable sense.