Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[EJ3]

Does the moon hold the key to the earth’s energy needs?

Tidal power is the only renewable source derived from the moon. Now an extraordinary array of devices promise to unlock this vital energy potential

www.theguardian.com

Nice summary with simple pictures of various tidal energy harvesting schemes.

However, DON'T DO IT!

We might stop the rotation of the earth in only 1000 years!!!!! Details in the pdf below.

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/zjl/pdf/tide0.pdf

This seems surface water temp VS depth water temp seems electrically promising, as there is 3 miles between us & the next island. In-between it's over 400 meters deep and off shore just a few miles it's 1600+ meters deep. According to this, there is more happening in this arena than I thought. I'll have to keep an eye on it. With the right thing, we might be able to power ours & several islands around us.

 

[Blumlein 88]

That's just wrong. By many, many, orders of magnitude.

The rotational kinetic energy of the earth (the thing that's being "extracted" in tidal energy generation) is 10s of millions of times the total annual energy consumption by humans.

His assumption is that human energy consumption will increase exponentially until the two numbers are comparable. If that were true (in any scenario for how that energy was generated), we'd be in much bigger trouble than that.

Of course, the assumption that exponential growth will continue unabated until some absurd result obtains is always a flawed assumption.

Yes, I suppose. I've read a good piece once showing that with 3% annual economic growth, had it started with the time of the Egyptian pyramids, we would have by now have consumed all the energy and materials in the entire solar system. So much for continued exponential growth at even low levels. OTOH, alternative forms of energy generation have been more than exponential the last 20 years. So maybe before we stop the rotation of the earth we boil away the oceans. Either way it is a problem for future generations. Maybe some of whom live on Mars.

 

[rkbates]

The real trick is to get your EV into the electricity market. Yesterday the price was slightly -ve for a period, so theoretically I get paid to charge the EV. 3 hours ago it was $15,100 per MWh, so I could have sold 50 kWh for $755. Net profit for the day $756. Unfortunately there's a few hurdles to individuals getting access to the market. It does however highlight the disconnect between the value of energy and the price of energy, particularly over a 24 hr cycle.

 

[Head_Unit]

I will point out that I got >$1800 in rebates...for installing my EV charger.

I was just at a friend's, and his neighbor same. It still cost, but some of the sting removed. However there are a lot of people with no close place to PARK which is another issue. Or parking in an apartment garage, whose owners sure as heck are not going to pay all those upgrade $$$ unless forced to by legislation (maybe with rebates as a carrot?)

 

[antcollinet]

That's just wrong. By many, many, orders of magnitude.

The rotational kinetic energy of the earth (the thing that's being "extracted" in tidal energy generation) is 10s of millions of times the total annual energy consumption by humans.

His assumption is that human energy consumption will increase exponentially until the two numbers are comparable. If that were true (in any scenario for how that energy was generated), we'd be in much bigger trouble than that.

Of course, the assumption that exponential growth will continue unabated until some absurd result obtains is always a flawed assumption.

Not to mention most of the electrical energy extracted will be simply recovery of energy otherwise lost as heat. Tides have been flowing through channels, rushing round rocks, up and down river estuaries - even just the self friction of any moving turbulant fluid - and so on over 2/3 of the earths surface for billions of years. Puting a few turbines around some strategic coastal areas with already high tidal flow is going to make unmeasurable difference to those losses. In fact it won't even change them in many cases - just water flowing through turbines instead of natural channels.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Not to mention most of the electrical energy extracted will be simply recovery of energy otherwise lost as heat. Tides have been flowing through channels, rushing round rocks, up and down river estuaries - even just the self friction of any moving turbulant fluid - and so on over 2/3 of the earths surface for billions of years. Puting a few turbines around some strategic coastal areas with already high tidal flow is going to make unmeasurable difference to those losses. In fact it won't even change them in many cases - just water flowing through turbines instead of natural channels.

Come on now. This is an existential threat beyond global warming. Global rotational erosion. We're all toast in only 1000 years (actually half toast and half frozen). Our only hope is a permanent umbrella at Lagrange point L1 with a reflector at L2. We only have a millenium to make it happen so we better start now. Chop, chop!

 

[Willem]

The real trick is to get your EV into the electricity market. Yesterday the price was slightly -ve for a period, so theoretically I get paid to charge the EV. 3 hours ago it was $15,100 per MWh, so I could have sold 50 kWh for $755. Net profit for the day $756. Unfortunately there's a few hurdles to individuals getting access to the market.

As a semi economist I am a great fan of the market, and such variable pricing will be an important part of the solution to balance supply and demand. The first Dutch electricity companies are beginning to offer variable pricing contracts to private consumers, and indeed a few weeeks ago when the weather was a breezy sunny day total production of renewables was more than consumption, and hence such consumers enjoyed negative prices. For this to become really effective, car charging and domestic appliances will have to become smart, but this is in the pipeline.
At the moment we can still sell our surplus electricty to the electricity companies for the same price they charge us for our consumption, so there is little incentive to get smarter, but this will gradually be abandoned from next year, because it is becoming untenable given the quantity of solar power produced. Even so, solar panels will remain a financially very attractive investment. Until the grid becomes smarter, we can still do some of it by charging the car and using power hungry appliances during the day.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Zounds!

Really?

Here in the US, Tesla Supercharging is $0.30/kWhr. So $17.10 buys me 238 miles of range.

I was shocked to read that it was so much more expensive in the UK.

So shocked, that ... I ... looked it up.

Tesla Supercharging is 28p/kWhr in the UK. So that same 238 miles of range costs £15.96.



If you quote the correct figures, definitely right.

Can you get 238 miles of range in your BMW for less than £16? I don't think so ...



That sounds like a rather weird conspiracy theory. Given your track record on these matters, I am going to have to ask you for a source on that.



I am completely unfamiliar with the BMW I4 (never even read a review of it). But I will assume that, on this one matter, you have actually done your homework.

On your first point Channel 4 showed a documentary hosted by Guy Martin he drove from the English Midlands to the north of Scotland in an Hyundai EV. The problems he faced were charging stations that didn’t work, poor mobile phone connectivity and a cost of around £50 to charge his vehicle to 80% think it was on a BP network. The same reports are common over here when journalists carry out tests on EVs.

Regarding domestic charging points the Government legislation comes under ‘The automated and electric vehicles Act 2018.’
Refer to chapter 4, question 77 for a better understanding.

Where did you get the figure of 238 miles at a cost of £16? The actual figure not stated by me at the time for a journey of 220 miles mostly on motorways was £38.

Sounds like you’re unfamiliar with many facts on the use and cost of EVs in the UK?

 

[Willem]

All of this may well be a reflection on UK infrastructure and government policies rather than the practically of an EV. The Netherlands now have 81000 public charging stations, of which 3000 are fast chargers. An app on your phone will direct you to the nearest one, and tell you its actual status and pricing. The current number of petrol stations is 4100, so broadly similar to the number of fast charging stations.

 

[JJB70]

My experience of UK EV infrastructure is that it is fine. There is a legitimate issue in that payment cards should be simplified as it is a bit of a nightmare with different cards for different chargers but I find the stories about the horrors of the infrastructure are hatchet jobs written by journalists looking for clicks or to feed what their magazine buyers want. Motorway chargers are expensive, but so is petrol and diesel from motorways, if you can charge your car at home then it is cheap, and you can pay for a lot of public charge point use at high prices before you come anywhere near the cost of diesel or petrol for a typical EV use case.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

All of this may well be a reflection on UK infrastructure and government policies rather than the practically of an EV. The Netherlands now have 81000 public charging stations, of which 3000 are fast chargers. An app on your phone will direct you to the nearest one, and tell you its actual status and pricing. The current number of petrol stations is 4100, so broadly similar to the number of fast charging stations.

As I said in a previous post, can’t comment on anywhere but the UK, it’s a fact of life over here.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

My experience of UK EV infrastructure is that it is fine. There is a legitimate issue in that payment cards should be simplified as it is a bit of a nightmare with different cards for different chargers but I find the stories about the horrors of the infrastructure are hatchet jobs written by journalists looking for clicks or to feed what their magazine buyers want. Motorway chargers are expensive, but so is petrol and diesel from motorways, if you can charge your car at home then it is cheap, and you can pay for a lot of public charge point use at high prices before you come anywhere near the cost of diesel or petrol for a typical EV use case.

Wouldn’t argue with your cost analysis, purely on an observation basis as some one interested in buying an EV in the future infrastructure seems lacking. Not enough fast charging stations and people hogging them

 

[samsa]

On your first point Channel 4 showed a documentary hosted by Guy Martin he drove from the English Midlands to the north of Scotland in an Hyundai EV. The problems he faced were charging stations that didn’t work, poor mobile phone connectivity and a cost of around £50 to charge his vehicle to 80% think it was on a BP network. The same reports are common over here when journalists carry out tests on EVs.

Obviously, there wouldn't be a "story" if his journey had gone smoothly, and charging cost a normal amount.

So I call bullshit.

As I said, Tesla Supercharging (the most ubiquitous) is 28p/kWhr.

Regarding domestic charging points the Government legislation comes under ‘The automated and electric vehicles Act 2018.’
Refer to chapter 4, question 77 for a better understanding.

Sorry. I'm staring at the Legislation right now. I don't see any provision that even vaguely fits your description. You'll have to do better.

Where did you get the figure of 238 miles at a cost of £16? The actual figure not stated by me at the time for a journey of 220 miles mostly on motorways was £38.

You asked, specifically, about "charging to 80%", so I took the data from my last visit to a SuperCharger off the App on my phone: I added 57 kWhr (charging from 7% to 80%). The EPA rates my Tesla Model Y Long-Range at 240 Whr/mile, so 57 kWhr = 238 miles of range. That cost me $17.10.

The same 57 kWhr would cost £15.96 at a Tesla Supercharger in the UK. You spent more than twice that on petrol, and didn't even get that much range.

My experience of UK EV infrastructure is that it is fine. There is a legitimate issue in that payment cards should be simplified as it is a bit of a nightmare with different cards for different chargers but I find the stories about the horrors of the infrastructure are hatchet jobs written by journalists looking for clicks or to feed what their magazine buyers want.

I only have experience with Tesla Superchargers, but the experience is completely seamless:

1. Drive up.
2. Plug in.
3. Stretch your legs, or watch Netflix, while the car is charging.
4. Unplug.
5. Drive away.

No reaching for a credit card, or fumbling with an App on your phone.

Even better, there's a

0. If you add the Supercharger as a waypoint on your journey (or accept the Navigation software's suggestion to do so), then the car will precondition the battery so that, when you reach the Supercharger, the battery is at the optimal temperature for fast-charging.

Motorway chargers are expensive, but so is petrol and diesel from motorways, if you can charge your car at home then it is cheap, and you can pay for a lot of public charge point use at high prices before you come anywhere near the cost of diesel or petrol for a typical EV use case.

Exactly. Even though Supercharging in the US is twice the price I pay for home-charging (I don't know what domestic electricity rates are in the UK, so I can't compare), it's still less than half the price of petrol.

 

[samsa]

Oh, and I did look up the announcement for the BMW i4:

BMW i4 is the fully-electric version of the 4 Series Gran Coupe, but it has rather good specs for an electric car built on repurposed ICE vehicle underpinnings.

Right there would be a veto for me. Building an electric vehicle on an ICE platform puts the center-of-gravity too high, and such cars tend to handle poorly.

EVs that were designed as such (rather than shoehorned onto an ICE platform) put the battery pack below the cabin, which gives them a low center-of-gravity and hence superior handling for a car of that size and weight.

In the United States, the i4 electric hatchback will be sold in two distinct trims, as a lower-powered rear-wheel drive variant, and a more powerful all-wheel drive model.
The first is the more affordable of the two, the i4 eDrive 40, which gets a single 335 horsepower rear-mounted electrically excited synchronous motor whose peak torque is 317 pound-feet (430 Nm). It sprints to 100 km/h (62 mph) in 5.7 seconds and its top speed is 118 mph (190 km/h). This will be the longest-range i4, with an expected EPA range of around 300 miles on a single charge, and a starting price of $55,400 plus a $995 destination charge.

The more powerful i4 M50 will be the performance driver’s choice, with all-wheel drive and a combined power output of 536 horsepower and 586 pound-feet (795 Nm). It’s worth noting that the maximum output is only maintained for up to 10 seconds, courtesy of a Sport Boost function that gives a temporary 67 horsepower and 48 pound-foot boost.

BMW claims it sprints to 100 km/h (62 mph) in 3.9 seconds and its top speed is higher than the eDrive 40’s, 140 mph (225 km/h). The EPA range that BMW is expecting this model to achieve is a more conservative 240 miles and its starting price is $65,900 plus the same $995 destination charge.

Neither of these have the range your Dealer claimed. But perhaps the European models come with different specifications.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Just because it doesn’t agree with your Blue Sky philosophy on EVs doesn’t make it BS.
Never doubted domestic charging is cheaper than diesel or petrol, when it comes to fast charging in the UK the advantage isn’t as great. I turn up and fill my petrol car in a couple of minutes, no waiting, no worry about accessing a charging point. Doing about 8k miles a year the saving in running costs don’t cover the extra cost in buying an EV.
Gave you the information needed to access the relevant UK legislation. If you can’t access readily available information it’s your problem not mine. The EV world doesn’t begin and end with Tesla

 

[samsa]

Gave you the information needed to access the relevant UK legislation. If you can’t access readily available information it’s your problem not mine. The EV world doesn’t begin and end with Tesla

I linked to the Legislation on the legislation.gov.uk website. There is nothing in the legislation that even vaguely fits your description.

Sorry.

Never doubted domestic charging is cheaper than diesel or petrol, when it comes to fast charging in the UK the advantage isn’t as great.

But still more than a factor of 2 cheaper than petrol.

I never claimed that the price of charging would offset the higher purchase price of the vehicle. That's not the reason to buy an EV.

But claiming that fast-charging on the Motorway is more expensive than petrol is just plain ludicrous.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I linked to the Legislation on the legislation.gov.uk website. There is nothing in the legislation that even vaguely fits your description.

Sorry.



But still more than a factor of 2 cheaper than petrol.

I never claimed that the price of charging would offset the higher purchase price of the vehicle. That's not the reason to buy an EV.

But claiming that fast-charging on the Motorway is more expensive than petrol is just plain ludicrous.

The thing is both you and I don’t know if Motorway fast charging is cheaper or dearer? Know if I had an EV and stopped for a Motorway break, if it was possible to put my EV on charge if it had less than 50% capacity then for peace of mind might put it on charge. You live in an ideal world I live in the real world.

 

[rkbates]

I'm not sure why there is the expectation that EVs will suit everyone and be 100% useful for all applications. They are one piece of the solution. Things are still developing, but the writing is on the wall https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/eu-climate-vote-energy-intl/index.html. As far as charging goes, have a look at plugshare.com - an unbelievable amount of charging stations available. Not all prices are published, but in Australia many are free and a lot are 30c/kWh (ie domestic price). The map is a bit deceptive since some are merely GPOs or 15 A outlets. Were there that many petrol service stations around in the early days of the ICE? Personally, of more concern is how governments will extract the fuel excise they miss out on.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The thing is both you and I don’t know if Motorway fast charging is cheaper or dearer? Know if I had an EV and stopped for a Motorway break, if it was possible to put my EV on charge if it had less than 50% capacity then for peace of mind might put it on charge. You live in an ideal world I live in the real world.

I think you are in fantasy land frankly. You've been trying every way you can to make it look like EV charging is impractical and too expensive. The only indicators one can find are that fast charging in the UK is not much more expensive than anywhere else and definitely cheaper than ICE fuel costs. Your gov't has plans to expand greatly the charging points on all major motorways which isn't surprising.

If you don't like an EV that is fine, they certainly don't meet everyone's needs. Fuel cost being more in an EV certainly is one of the weakest reasons as it isn't true. EV use is marginally friendly enough that with a little planning and change of habits it is feasible for many. It will be increasingly so as time goes by. In the USA where distances traveled are greater than many places, lots of people I know rent a vehicle for vacations or long trips if they aren't frequent travelers. Such people can use EVs with little downside.

My main complaint is up front costs, and lack of 2nd hand options. The latter will clear up in time.

 

[EJ3]

I was just at a friend's, and his neighbor same. It still cost, but some of the sting removed. However there are a lot of people with no close place to PARK which is another issue. Or parking in an apartment garage, whose owners sure as heck are not going to pay all those upgrade $$$ unless forced to by legislation (maybe with rebates as a carrot?)

I'm not sure why there is the expectation that EVs will suit everyone and be 100% useful for all applications. They are one piece of the solution. Things are still developing, but the writing is on the wall https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/eu-climate-vote-energy-intl/index.html. As far as charging goes, have a look at plugshare.com - an unbelievable amount of charging stations available. Not all prices are published, but in Australia many are free and a lot are 30c/kWh (ie domestic price). The map is a bit deceptive since some are merely GPOs or 15 A outlets. Were there that many petrol service stations around in the early days of the ICE? Personally, of more concern is how governments will extract the fuel excise they miss out on.

Effectively taxes paid by others (whether they own an ev, charging station. both or walk or ride a bicycle [or even prefer a petrol vehicle]) pays for the charging stations that others want because they bought EV's that they want to charge. That is just wrong on so many levels. Generally governments can't operate without fund from the people & the usual method is taxation. But to then give tax money (in the form of a rebate) to help people who are not destitute & starving (because they want to charge an EV) is no different than if the government paid peoples gas bill for their ICE car with the peoples tax money. I suspect that some would call that theft & mis-use of funds. It is the same no matter which side you are on. Although those that receive the rebate (paid by received taxes from the government rarely think so)If you want EV's & charging stations, by all means you should be able to have them. But they should not be paid for by people who have legitimately given their tax money to the government to help it run & take care of the people (medical, mental health, food for poor families, etc), things that have a direct effect on quality of life. The government (any government) should not be subsidizing EV's. Are they subsidizing bicycles, walking to work, mopeds, busses electric & otherwise, trains (many are diesel electric hybrid or electric, etc (all those things would help & some of them are also the so called ZERO EMISIONS (true only at the point of use unless all power for the EV is made by solar, wind or water & there is an environmental cast their, as well as in order to produce the EV vehicles & chargers.). If that is within the contract of the government, then I would say they are helping the people. But, in singling out an industry to subsidize. I smell high potential for corruption (by bureaucrats & legislators investing in things that they say everyone must have).