Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[DVDdoug]

How do you get a subsidy without politics???

I think the big break will come if they do manage fully autonomous self driving. When that happens nobody wants to own a car.

That's what "academics" and "dreamers" think...

In the real world people like to own things. I'm single and I own two vehicles, and it's not unusual (here in the U.S.) for a family to have a "extra car" (or a car and a motorcycle or some kind of "special" vehicle).

I have a friend who had some health problems and basically go too old to drive. She'd love to have self-driving car! And kids that are too young to drive too! (If they have rich parents.)

 

[Ron Texas]

ICE cars don't have 160,000 mile warranties even though they last that long. Most recent Tesla's have either 8 yr/100,000 mile or 8yr/120,000 mile warranties on drive unit and battery. Again that doesn't mean most are worn out by that point as most from the limited data available seems to indicate they last longer.

I've not seen data that the failure rate at 10 years is 50%, can you point to where that info is?

PS-I'm surprised the 160,000 miles is average for ICE. The last three vehicles I've sold had 285,000 miles and fully functional when I sold it. 230,000 miles and fully functional (I happen to know it went onto 310,000 at which point someone ran a stop sign and killed it). And way back when I had 140,000 miles on a car which was working just fine when someone crashed into it. Two of those I purchased 2nd hand so I didn't put all the miles on them.

The duration of a warranty is irrelevant. What matters is actual performance. I can't give you a link on battery failure rates. Failure is defined as reaching 70% of new charge capacity. Most of my data comes from private economic reports. If you search the net you will find far more optimistic predictions with some saying the battery will last the life of the car. Believe who you want to believe.

Regular use of level 3 charging stations and hot weather are enemies of battery life. If a study was done in the Bay Area which has the highest concentration of EV's it will look a lot better than one done in Houston, Phoenix or Miami.

I recall there was a lawsuit against Nissan over batteries in the Leaf failing after 70,000 miles. Needless to say the Chevy Bolt is having more than it's share of problems.

 

[Doodski]

I kind of backed into EV ownership, because the giant V-8 SUV I need for my isolated rural place is hopeless when I stay in town - too many cold starts and one-mile trips to the grocery, getting 8mpg and wearing it out. So I put a toe in the water with a Chevy Bolt. It's great. At town speeds, the computer gives me over 400 miles of range. I charge it every couple weeks from the wall. Best thing is the "one pedal" mode - it makes for very fluent, precise driving through traffic. Gas engines-plus-gearboxes now feel lurching and clumsy in comparison.

I read they accelerate hard too. I'm really wanting to try one. The loss of traction when accelerating is fun and is great with front wheel drive for some spirited cornering.

 

[Doodski]

How do you get a subsidy without politics???

I agree. That is a tricky one to navigate but I thought about it and it can be done. By the way I received special permission for this thread to exist from @AdamG247 because of the lithium and subsidy angles.

 

[Doodski]

hot weather are enemies of battery life.

In cold climates there is a battery heater powered by the battery/itself of course.

 

[Willem]

I have not had a car for much of my life. I bought my first one when I was living in North Carolina (a ful sized Dodge with a V8 engine). Elsewhere I have always lived in cities and close to work. Therefore, we ride our bicycles to work, and do most of our shopping by bicycle. I expect that when our current ICE car dies we will get an electrical one (the Volkswagen ID3 is my current favourite, if only because of its clean styling). Right now, most of the the electrical cars still do not have the range that we like for trips to Italy or the south of France (i.e. some 500 km for stretches of 2x2=4 hours between charging stations). And yes, electricity will have to be sustainable to make sense. Our current solar panels are enough for our current consumption, but we would have to install additional ones to charge an electric car. In winter that would not work, of course. So for now, our ecological investment has been in pretty extreme insulation of the roof and the space underneath the ground floor. For now, that probably saves more energy than an electrical car that uses electricity from coal. But the electrical car will come. Here in the Netherlands the infrastucture is already more or less there, and still rapidly expanding. Some 30% of all new cars are now electrical. As for subsidies, yes they helped a lot in the initial phases to create momentum, and are now gradually being phased out.

 

[Doodski]

Our current solar panels are enough for our current consumption, but we would have to install additional ones to charge an electric car. In winter that would not work, of course.

Are you familiar with dual sided solar panels? The photons reflected off of the snow work on the bottom side while the top is simultaneously energized by the sun.

 

[Willem]

Not enough snow here in the Netherlands: one or two weeks at most. In effect, we have a surplus in the summer, we more or less break even for a short period in Spring and Autumn, and then some four months with very low productivity. Remember we are far north and a very low sun right now. For us, windmills will be more important, but not for individual homes of course.

 

[Ron Texas]

In cold climates there is a battery heater powered by the battery/itself of course.

Yeah, I hear they need a bit of warm up to work right. EV's are popular in Norway due to cheap electricity, expensive gasoline and a much lower purchase tax than ICE vehicles. I see Tesla's around Houston, but none of my neighbors have them. The Model S has nice styling, but I find the other Tesla cars to not be pleasing to my eye. The dual motor concept is appealing. Last I heard delivery time on a Model 3 is about a year. Maybe I could drive up to Austin and buy Elon some barbeque and a few beers.

 

[Beershaun]

I thought this was a useful and relevant video discussing the parameters and how to calculate whether it's lower carbon footprint to hold onto your existing car, buy an EV, or buy an ICE car.

 

[Doodski]

The Model S has nice styling, but I find the other Tesla cars to not be pleasing to my eye.

The other models have a front nose that looks like a VW Beetle to me. Not attractive. They do need to revamp that.

Last I heard delivery time on a Model 3 is about a year. Maybe I could drive up to Austin and buy Elon some barbeque and a few beers.

Send him email and give it a try...lol.. Ya never know with that guy.

 

[Beershaun]

The duration of a warranty is irrelevant. What matters is actual performance. I can't give you a link on battery failure rates. Failure is defined as reaching 70% of new charge capacity.

Interesting definition. What would the equivalent failure definition be for an ICE vehicle? 70% means it still works and goes 70% of it's range and power? Or 70% of it's range and 100% of it's power? If that's the case those cars would still have a ton of value at resale. Much like an ICE car would if it still runs and goes fine but less efficient than when it was new. Also I imagine tons of ICE cars fit that 70% definition much earlier than 10 years. (Looking at you German car manufacturers who build cars for 3 year lease and continuous upgrade train.)

 

[Doodski]

I thought this was a useful and relevant video discussing the parameters and how to calculate whether it's lower carbon footprint to hold onto your existing car, buy an EV, or buy an ICE car.

A cobalt supply is apparently coming. Located north of Toronto. "The Ring of Fire was originally promoted as a source of chromite, an important component in steel. Now the hype centers on its supply of minerals used in EV batteries and energy storage systems, including cobalt, lithium, manganese, nickel, graphite and copper."

 

[Ron Texas]

Interesting definition. What would the equivalent failure definition be for an ICE vehicle? 70% means it still works and goes 70% of it's range and power? Or 70% of it's range and 100% of it's power? If that's the case those cars would still have a ton of value at resale. Much like an ICE car would if it still runs and goes fine but less efficient than when it was new. Also I imagine tons of ICE cars fit that 70% definition much earlier than 10 years. (Looking at you German car manufacturers who build cars for 3 year lease and continuous upgrade train.)

It's called SOC or state of charge. Battery wear is non linear. Fast at first, then slower for a while. At 70% the curve steepens down. I don't keep cars 10 years, but a 7 year old Infinity coupe I owned ran good as new. Your claim that ICE and BEV are comparable sounds like it came from out of the air.

Regarding raw materials for batteries recycling is possible, especially for the cathodes. There isn't a whole lot of cobalt in the world so it must be recycled. The main supplier of rare earths is China which could pose some challenges. Then again, Europe gets natural gas from Russia and through Belarus which could pose similar problems.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Yeah, I hear they need a bit of warm up to work right. EV's are popular in Norway due to cheap electricity, expensive gasoline and a much lower purchase tax than ICE vehicles. I see Tesla's around Houston, but none of my neighbors have them. The Model S has nice styling, but I find the other Tesla cars to not be pleasing to my eye. The dual motor concept is appealing. Last I heard delivery time on a Model 3 is about a year. Maybe I could drive up to Austin and buy Elon some barbeque and a few beers.

Norway one of the few places with a Sovereign wealth fund that can afford to choose it's transport future - they don't have a legacy automaker to look after.

I've been driving a plug in car (first a hybrid, now pure EV) for more than 4 years. Prior to these, an Audi A8L.

I don't miss the gas station coffee as much as I thought I would.

19,818 miles on my Niro EV last year - all within 60 miles of home, 90% of that within 30 miles of my garage where I plug in.

My next EV should act as a house sized battery backup for when the lights go out again. I have a decommissioned Nissan Leaf battery in the basement that gives me 23-32 hours of essential load power.

That came in handy last month, when we went dark for 20 hours.

Inside EVS Forum

A place for EV enthusiasts, experts, novices, and the newly interested to come and discuss electric vehicles and the issues surrounding them.

www.insideevsforum.com

 

[Beershaun]

Your claim that ICE and BEV are comparable sounds like it came from out of the air.

Truly, I was trying to figure out how to apply your definition and what it meant in real world terms. Like, is the car unusable if the battery has "failed" per your definition? And what the comparable definition would be for an ICE vehicle. I'm seeking to understand.

 

[Beershaun]

My next EV should act as a house sized battery backup for when the lights go out again.

You want an F150 lightning.

 

[Jim Matthews]

I thought this was a useful and relevant video discussing the parameters and how to calculate whether it's lower carbon footprint to hold onto your existing car, buy an EV, or buy an ICE car.

I love this guy's content. I always come away feeling smarter than I really am. He's a genius with the whiteboard.

 

[Jim Matthews]

You want an F150 lightning.

With the console refrigerator, thank you very much.
There's already an entrant into the market making an all-in-one charger/transfer switch - although I might wait until the cost comes down.

This EV charger turns electric cars into back-up power sources

Plug in your car to power your house.

mashable.com

 

[Jim Matthews]

Truly, I was trying to figure out how to apply your definition and what it meant in real world terms. Like, is the car unusable if the battery has "failed" per your definition? And what the comparable definition would be for an ICE vehicle. I'm seeking to understand.

The early Nissan Leaf had a low capacity, limited range battery without thermal management. When their battery pack crapped out, their owners filed and won a class action suit that defined failure at 70% capacity.

If your max range is only 73 miles on a good day, that's significant.

If you start with a more robust range (250 miles or so) it may not be a deal breaker.

Nissan Leaf Battery Capacity Lawsuit: Court Approves Settlement

Nissan and Leaf owners appear to have reached a final settlement in a lawsuit filed almost three years ago.

www.greencarreports.com