Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[pseudoid]

It was a to me to read the fine-print for the Kia EV6. It recommends 'against using DC fast charging excessively- which will derate the life of the battery' (<<my interpration). Oh here it is:
"Frequent use of DC fast charging can negatively impact battery performance and durability and Kia recommends minimizing use of DC fast charging."

Okee-Dokee! I get range anxiety riding my e-bike and I did not even know what anxiety was before this "ignoramous" (per FD) knew anything about EVs.
But what passes as the new vehicle of choice is fraught w/hurdles that keep mounting up. I'll ignore the political parts but what of privacy issues that are free for the purchase:

• What happens when you just passed the sign on the highway that states "Speed Limit: 55MPH" and you are traveling +1MPH?

So, please quit calling others who lack any interest in EVs (as they're being currently marketed) or those who have never driven one, lacking any credibility in this conversation.
Thank you.

 

[MediumRare]

The reality is the government is financing this by way of deficit spending as the USA does not currently have a balanced budget. Not providing incentives does not mean the auto industry will “fade away”. It simply means consumers will buy what they want. If that is EV’s, then any auto maker wanting to stay in business will produce what the consumer wants - at a price that is attractive.

Sounds like you are convinced the world must make the switch as soon as possible. I am not convinced yet and think hybrids are the best “bridge” for now. Should gasoline fuel cells become practical, that would be another route.

Rather than enter a political discussion, I'll just say by way of a counter-example that the US no longer produces computers, telephones, televisions or solar panels, despite the large domestic market - and very low labor cost content - for all of these.

But let's return this discussion to the technology of EVs and their powertrains.

 

[Timcognito]

It simply means consumers will buy what they want.

And right now in the US demand for HEVs, PHEVs and EVs far exceeds supply due in most part to the long average trip length and cost of gas in the US.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Rather than enter a political discussion, I'll just say by way of a counter-example that the US no longer produces computers, telephones, televisions or solar panels, despite the large domestic market - and very low labor cost content - for all of these.

But let's return this discussion to the technology of EVs and their powertrains.

The title of this thread includes discussing subsidies/rebates. It also says to avoid politics.
I cannot see any politics in asking how the incentives are paid for. The government is either collecting the taxes to fund the program - balanced budget - or more programs are funded than taxes collected - deficit spending. Politics often involves deliberate untruths to sway groups a particular direction.
Bottom line of my point is - if the consumers want EV's and their variations, the demand will be there with or without incentives. Funding incentives with "borrowed" money seems "unwise".

 

[Bob from Florida]

And right now in the US demand for HEVs, PHEVs and EVs far exceeds supply due in most part to the long average trip length and cost of gas in the US.

Can you rephrase the above?

It sounds like you are saying demand exceeds supply due to long trips and gasoline cost. Pure EV's have trip length limitations and while gas prices are higher now than a couple of years ago, U.S. gas prices are low compared to some other places.

 

[Timcognito]

if the consumers want EV's and their variations, the demand will be there with or without incentives. Funding incentives with "borrowed" money seems "unwise".

You are right. But because there is such a high demand and the EV technology is new the government incentives are making the US a leader in that tech and creating jobs as well as covering and deferring the the retooling costs. And there is the issue of climate change. We also competing with countries that buy infrastructure in factories and equipment and pay for health insurance and medical infrastructure, costs in the US payed by the private sector.

 

[j_j]

Bottom line of my point is - if the consumers want EV's and their variations, the demand will be there with or without incentives.

That's extremely debatable, actually, due to infrastructure issues that still exist, and the consumer concern with that infrastructure, that is all over this thread. Replacing a ubiquitous method has a price.

 

[j_j]

Can you rephrase the above?

It sounds like you are saying demand exceeds supply due to long trips and gasoline cost. Pure EV's have trip length limitations and while gas prices are higher now than a couple of years ago, U.S. gas prices are low compared to some other places.

What he said makes perfect sense. Cheaper per mile, longer trips == more demand. "Trip length limitations" are only for "long distance" travel, not mean trip length.

 

[Timcognito]

It sounds like you are saying demand exceeds supply due to long trips and gasoline cost. Pure EV's have trip length limitations and while gas prices are higher now than a couple of years ago, U.S. gas prices are low compared to some other places.

I am talking about the round trip commuting drive times do to the size of the US and the urban/suburban landscape not found in many other places. PHEVs and EVs can handle most home to work round trips in US.

 

[MediumRare]

Funding incentives with "borrowed" money seems "unwise".

Discussion of subsidies themselves is fine. I believe the intention was so folks could know what subsidies are available to individual buyers.

OTOH, do you see how discussion of the point quoted above would be politics?

 

[Bob from Florida]

Discussion of subsidies themselves is fine. I believe the intention was so folks could know what subsidies are available to individual buyers.

OTOH, do you see how discussion of the point quoted above would be politics?

Perhaps Doodski can clarify the purpose of discussing the subsidies.

At this point, perhaps we can agree to disagree on whether it is political or not to talk about whether borrowing to fund subsidies is wise.

 

[Timcognito]

Without espousing a position about spending or my political affiliations here some facts about taxes around the world from

 

[kongwee]

Made-in-China new energy buses race towards overseas markets

Made-in-China new energy buses race towards overseas markets-

english.news.cn

There is nothing to say about subsides at least for China ending this year.

China ends electric vehicle subsidies

The government no longer provides subsidies to buyers of electric vehicles, but other policies are expected to keep stimulating the industry

chinadialogue.net

 

[pablolie]

it is established that the net environmental benefits of EVs are pretty much zero, but of course their emission standard compliance in urban areas is guaranteed.

my personal issue is i see zero ownership enjoyment or pride in owning a car that just drives itself - which clearly is what car tech, EV or not, is evolving to. i might as well just Uber a self-driving car. why own a car i don't drive, and has as many control and self-driving capabilities that demote me to passenger status?

supposedly in CA we will not be able to buy non-EV cars starting... was it 2035? i'll never ever own a car when it comes to that (that plus self driving). we will enter the age of AI and EV cabs. and if i live that long, better believe i'll hole on to my "historic vehicles"...

 

[kongwee]

Yup, in future transport which is not far away. We will have lots of self driving EVs on streets. Well at least some cities will have it first. You know which cities will come first.

 

[j_j]

it is established that the net environmental benefits of EVs are pretty much zero, but of course their emission standard compliance in urban areas is guaranteed.

Really, where is that established?

 

[beefkabob]

it is established that the net environmental benefits of EVs are pretty much zero, but of course their emission standard compliance in urban areas is guaranteed.

That may be established in your mind, but that has not a thing to do with reality, science, or truth.

my personal issue is i see zero ownership enjoyment or pride in owning a car that just drives itself - which clearly is what car tech, EV or not, is evolving to. i might as well just Uber a self-driving car. why own a car i don't drive, and has as many control and self-driving capabilities that demote me to passenger status?

That's fine. You're welcome to feel this way. Current driver tech is awful, so you're a long, long way off from having to worry about this. In fact, you'll probably be long dead by the time cars are forced to drive for themselves. We're talking many decades. The problems are algorithmic. Speech to text is still garbage, and that's a far, far easier problem to solve.

supposedly in CA we will not be able to buy non-EV cars starting... was it 2035? i'll never ever own a car when it comes to that (that plus self driving). we will enter the age of AI and EV cabs. and if i live that long, better believe i'll hole on to my "historic vehicles"...

You're welcome to live in the past. There will be ample gas stations for quite a while past 2035, but they'll slowly die off as their profits fall, and we'll all be better off for it.

 

[beefkabob]

Really, where is that established?

In his mind. The oil companies don't even believe it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

it is established that the net environmental benefits of EVs are pretty much zero, but of course their emission standard compliance in urban areas is guaranteed.

my personal issue is i see zero ownership enjoyment or pride in owning a car that just drives itself - which clearly is what car tech, EV or not, is evolving to. i might as well just Uber a self-driving car. why own a car i don't drive, and has as many control and self-driving capabilities that demote me to passenger status?

supposedly in CA we will not be able to buy non-EV cars starting... was it 2035? i'll never ever own a car when it comes to that (that plus self driving). we will enter the age of AI and EV cabs. and if i live that long, better believe i'll hole on to my "historic vehicles"...

Do you realize there is nothing different on the self driving front that couldn't or wouldn't be applied to ICE powered cars? The computers and sensors don't care if the source of their power is an EV battery or an alternator. They'll work just the same either way. Many cars are already electric power steering and virtually all are throttle by wire.

Now I personally would prefer there not be legislation forcing the issue either way. I think in its own good time that will resolve itself with a mixture of types or one will become so dominant the other will be a niche product.

As for it being established that net environmental benefits of EVs are pretty much zero, but somehow the rest of us aren't privy to your info?

 

[blueone]

Without espousing a position about spending or my political affiliations here some facts about taxes around the world from

View attachment 269943 View attachment 269945

So what value is there in your post in the context of this thread?