Would a USB->AES DDC benefit a USB capable DAC

[bryan0101]

Guys,
A technical dilemma. I use full PC as source, for the longest time I use a Marian Seraph D4 Digital soundcard output digital AES to my EMM Labs DAC2x v2.
One day I decided to just try the EMM labs USB driver and it sounded really nice, and using foobar plugin I can output all my FLAC as DSD to it.
Well, things change and now I only stream spotify, and the USB output driver itself is from 2016. The dac still sounding unbelievable, but now I wonder if adding a DDC USB->AES would be better sounding, with those newly developed drivers.
Also I'm sure the clock inside the Emm labs is great, but there could be better one out there.
Denafrips, Gustard....whatever DDC.

Cheers...

 

[bryan0101]

Addendum:
Their USB input does have fully reclock capability. So I'm not even sure the clock in the DDC would come into play at all.

MFAST™ vs. conventional PLLs: Most converters utilize PLL (Phase Lock Loop) circuits. MFAST™ has two distinct advantages. It’s a high-speed asynchronous system that acquires any data stream almost instantaneously. Moreover, unlike PLLs which merely attenuate jitter, MFAST™ strips jitter out of the audio stream completely.

 

[gvl]

It feels that there’s some kind of flaw in the thought that a $300 DDC can improve the sound of a DAC that costs hundred times more.

 

[mdsimon2]

The Stereophile review of this DAC has some good discussion on why the USB input should be best -> https://www.stereophile.com/content/emm-labs-dv2-da-processor, although of course the reviewer seems oddly obsessed with not using the USB input. The advertising copy for this DAC makes some grandiose claims but it seems if using the non-USB inputs it uses an ASRC such that the DAC is always clocked by a local oscillator which IMO is a good thing (similar to approach used by countless ESS DACs).

Michael

 

[bryan0101]

It feels that there’s some kind of flaw in the thought that a $300 DDC can improve the sound of a DAC that costs hundred times more.

In other areas, I'd agree with that statement.
But for DAC interfaces, we do make substantial progress over time in parallel to the chip fabrication industry: FPGA, USB drivers, clocks, these are advances that cannot be overlooked thats all.

 

[bryan0101]

The Stereophile review of this DAC has some good discussion on why the USB input should be best -> https://www.stereophile.com/content/emm-labs-dv2-da-processor, although of course the reviewer seems oddly obsessed with not using the USB input. The advertising copy for this DAC makes some grandiose claims but it seems if using the non-USB inputs it uses an ASRC such that the DAC is always clocked by a local oscillator which IMO is a good thing (similar to approach used by countless ESS DACs).

Michael

Oh I never read that review.
otoh, that is a current model, mine is an older model, with different chipsets and everything. So I'm just not sure.
Looks like I'd just get a gustard u18 and just test it out and see.

 

[mdsimon2]

Oh I never read that review.
otoh, that is a current model, mine is an older model, with different chipsets and everything. So I'm just not sure.
Looks like I'd just get a gustard u18 and just test it out and see.

It seems their design approach is to always use a local oscillator, quote from the review:

"The clock needs to be as close as possible to the DAC to minimize jitter," Al Rashid explained by e-mail. "In the DV2 and in fact in all our products, our reference clock sits right next to both L and R DAC modules. Our philosophy has always been that the system we create always has to be very, very simple and straightforward, because digital is not meant to be complicated. Digital is supposed to make your life simpler, not more difficult."

Obviously I am not going to stop you from experimenting but from a technical / objective standpoint there seems to be no benefit in using a non-USB input.

EDIT: Also read this interview which explains their clocking philosophy in even more detail -> https://www.stereophile.com/content/meitner-emm-dv2-dsd-mqa-digital-audio

Michael

 

[bryan0101]

Just want to report back.
Adding a U18 in the middle, getting from USB to DDC to the DAC with AES. The imaging is slightly more solid.
I'm not gonna pretend I understand why or whats going on, and am happy with the result....

 

[DVDdoug]

The imaging is slightly more solid.

In a non-blind test, of course.

If the digital data gets corrupted or interrupted you might get clicks, pops, or dropouts/gaps in the audio. And from what I've read jitter also sounds like noise but in order to be audible the jitter has to be artificially introduced at orders of magnitude worse than you get under any normal conditions.

Problems on the digital-side are rare and usually obvious. Except lossy compression (Spotify) can have subtle artifacts. Or the digital stream over the Internet may be interrupted or "shiny discs" can skip.

 

[Matias]

Maybe the balanced connection isolates the DAC from the electrical noise from the PC coming through the USB. But then adding a USB isolator/decrappifier and achieve the same. How effective and measurable each is, I don't know.

 

[gvl]

Just want to report back.
Adding a U18 in the middle, getting from USB to DDC to the DAC with AES. The imaging is slightly more solid.
I'm not gonna pretend I understand why or whats going on, and am happy with the result....

Now remove it from the chain, the imaging will solidify a notch again. Keep switching in/out until the imaging is truly solid, at that point you can remove the U18 and sell it. Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

 

[SIY]

Now remove it from the chain, the imaging will solidify a notch again. Keep switching in/out until the imaging is truly solid, at that point you can remove the U18 and sell it. Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

Sage advice!

 

[gvl]

Sage advice!

Speaking from experience

 

[Purité Audio]

Sage and onion.
Keith

 

[ThatGuyYouKnow]

Now remove it from the chain, the imaging will solidify a notch again. Keep switching in/out until the imaging is truly solid, at that point you can remove the U18 and sell it. Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

Remove it? No way, add a clock massager or something like that to the chain.

In all seriousness, it is in our nature to always want something else and justify it. Even when you hit a wall in a hobby, the desire for more stuff might never end.